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 Post subject: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:45 pm 
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We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.

We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.

Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.

We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.

We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.

We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.

In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.

We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.

We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!


If you want the source, I'll link it later.

Will it succeed or fail?


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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:37 pm 
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Good change.

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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:05 pm 
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looking forward to it...10mans are less forgiving than 25m because of the fewer amount of people one persons contribution is 10% as opposed to 4% but because 10ms are made to be so much less difficult it really trivializes all that contribution so im looking forward to harder 10ms, but i've never liked 25ms anyway so im not sure how a 25m guild will handle this news.

Also i like that bosses will all the same loot in both versions, i hope it lets designers make more interesting weapons instead of having multiple weapons in an instance that are just skins of a different one...the weapon kind of loses its uniqueness that alot of weapons in BC and Vanilla had. The multiple smaller raid thing is also a nice touch too as long as they keep it challenging...

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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:05 pm 
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I plan on quitting when Cata hits anyway, but I don't know if I like this.

Unless they add a lot of new raids to do, I just see this game getting really boring. As it is now, there are 2 raids that really matter. ICC 10/25 and VoA 25.

So after raid nights this game is terribly boring.

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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:35 pm 
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If all you do is piss content there will never be enough raids.

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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:28 am 
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Will someone narrow it down for me? Too lazy to read.


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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:49 am 
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.curve wrote:
I plan on quitting when Cata hits anyway, but I don't know if I like this.

Unless they add a lot of new raids to do, I just see this game getting really boring. As it is now, there are 2 raids that really matter. ICC 10/25 and VoA 25.

So after raid nights this game is terribly boring.


they did say they planned on adding alot of new raids. So instead of one big place you have to do for a whole patch hopefully it'll be more like 3.0 where you had a choice between OS, EoE, or Naxx and since they're bringing back CC they seem to want to put more emphasis on 5m Heroic difficulty so it won't just be an lol like it was into Naxx...

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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:59 am 
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iirc, they said they are dropping 4 raids on release?

not counting the ones later on


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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:27 am 
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I'm liking this. Running the same raid twice a week gets really boring.


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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:16 am 
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Seji wrote:
Will someone narrow it down for me? Too lazy to read.

10man = same difficulty + equipment as 25man.
heroic 10 man = same difficult as heroic 25, better equip than regular.
25man = higher quantity of loot (gold, badges, and items.)

That mostly sums it up.

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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:15 am 
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I'm not overly fond of the same loot with better stats for heroics.
I preferred the Ulduar set up where you get bonus loot for the HM.


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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:47 am 
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takolin wrote:
I'm not overly fond of the same loot with better stats for heroics.
I preferred the Ulduar set up where you get bonus loot for the HM.

Problem is then you can never have a large enough loot table for a full heroic item set with the Ulduar hard mode system unless Blizzard decide to make the boss heroic loot table so huge that you'd have to run the same fucking instance so many times till you feel like puking while wondering why are you raiding for shards.

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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:54 am 
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Well as some of you may know that I had a 6 months break ( stated in a topic ). When I came back I was so excited about the new content, yeah for like 2 minutes. I'm a pretty old WoW player, started in vanilla, raided in vanilla, raided in BC (enjoyed that most) and now I can't even say that I'm raiding. The content is hella easy no matter what you say. This is nothing compared to ssc, tk, bt, hyjal or sunwell. Trash is mostly AOE, while you had to do as many CCs as you could in sunwell. Bosses? Ok tank and spank, avoid the circle or whatever spawns under you and the healer should spam some raidheal because we are constantly getting raidwide damage, and what else? Of course adds and most of the time AOE!.

Since when does the content depend on even 5 people? You could clear naxxramas 25 with how many? 17 or 15 people? How would anyone be able to kill Magtheridon for example without 110% raid focus. Someone failed at cubing ->wipe.

And if this goes on...Cata will just be a failure. One of my old guild member said this: 'This game is...GMs just not giving you the epics when you log on at level 1'. He was right. After I came back everything has changed. T9 from vendors, means that no skill dumbasses are getting loots for what? Doing heroics. Of course they would not do normals after they have hit level 80... noooo that would be so lame, just coming in heroics and doing like 1k dps.

Some other things came to my mind:
Raid farming? How did you farm in vanilla and pre-bc? because I had like 2 characters and those were even more than enough with even 20 hours of playtime. I had to farm like 5 hours to be prepared for raids. There was no feast, noone gave us potions, repair was on our bill. Now it takes me 10 minutes to get prepared for a raid. My engineering alt crafts arrow and basically thats it because flask cost like 10g on our server, but my paladin's profession is herbalism so I can farm it for myself aswell. Food? nothxwehavefeast.

Were we playing hardcore compared to WOTLK? You might have asked yourself. Think about it cause I did. Back in BC or even in vanilla if someone failed at CCing a mob we just kicked him because we prolly wiped. If someone pulled off the mob from the tank, we kicked him because we prolly wiped. If the raid members did not have enough potions, we kicked 'em because they might have gone out of mana in like 1 minute or so. Resist gear was required for a tank. I remember that I was maybe the only hunter on the server who tanked maulgars shaman add, kael'thas's add, why? because I was the only one who did enough heroics to get all the resist gear. Do we really need resistance gear at the moment? HELL NO! I remember when we helped the server's top 1 horde guild to get shadow resist gear in BT so they can move on with the content.

So what will happen in cataclysm?
Leveling: It will be even easier, they might put in 1 or 2 more heirloom items that gives 10% experience. There will be more quests for higher xp reward that means you don't have to grind at all or you just don't have to run around at all.
Moving around: Flying will be available everywhere, I guess it doesn't need further discussion.
Items: Spank some heroics and you got your fancy epics just like you do get now. Awesome and yeah it takes hell of a time...
Reputation: It's just insane how you can grind up basically every single fraction in a heroic to exalted. I know there are exceptions. It's even hard to grind up hydroxian waterlords now, not to mention how hard it was in vanilla, since if the content was frozen for us and we couldn't move on the rep gain stopped aswell. Thorium Brotherhood is still hard and costs thousands of colds to gain exalted, and there were plenty of these reputations in either vanilla and bc.
Keys: This is the most pissing thing for me. When they moved down heroic keys to honored in BC I was really really pissed. All the lames who have just hit level 70 wanted to do heroics, it wasn't that easy back then like it is right now. Of course you don't need a single key in WOTLK and I guess keys won't be needed to obtain in cata either.

I might play in Cata aswell, at least level one char up to 85 and check the content (will go for server first level 85 hunter^^). I hope it won't be a huge failure and will be still enjoyable.

/soz for my english


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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:59 am 
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lol ok for a sec i thought i was at mmo-chmap forums

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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:07 pm 
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Quit whining. It the natural life cycle of an expansion starts off hard and as time goes on they make it easier for the less hard core which out number the hard core by a much larger number. Its been over a year if they had left the system the same then you would have people gearing up in heroic to do nax 10 then nax 10 for nax 25 then ulduar 10 for ulduar 25 then to toc 10 etc.. little late in the expansion for that now blizz wants as many people to see the end game raid as possible before the next expansion. If leveling to easy play silkroad if ya want hard leveling. Blizzard makes content they want everyone to see not just the hard core that spend 6 days a week 3 hours a day raiding. Hard core people get the Heroic versions of the raids.

I do have some reservations about 10 and 25 man having same loot I kinda see that killing off 25 man raids since it take more organization to set one up.

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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:03 am 
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Buddhist wrote:
Get off my raid you darn kids


Imagine being a Blizzard designer and going through all that work to make those wonderful instances you enjoyed so much and having about 10% of the total population actually seeing it. It was a waste of time really and most of the people playing didn't get their moneys worth.

Now Blizzard realized this and wanted to make WOTLK more accessible which they did with Naxx25 which they admitted was too easy. Then ULD came out and WoW was hard again because of HMs and even with all the people QQing that it was too easy only the top guilds were burning through that content quickly and it was the same rate guilds were burning through Sunwell Content and BT content so obviously for the good guilds the difficulty was exactly the same and now everyone could at least SEE the instance.

Then TOC came and it wasn't a major patch and the instance wasn't that hard but again, only the top guilds were burning through the content like it was no big dead and at the same rate the burned through BC content. So despite everyone complaining most of the complainers were people who hadn't even cleared it in TOGC mode. Yeah everyone was running around in T9 but only the best people had 258 gear and those were few and far between.

Lastly ICC hit and on the overall it was the same story hardcore guilds did what hardcore guilds did just as quickly as they did in BC (though limited attempts complicated things) and everyone cried that besides PP, LK, and Sind the whole place was a joke but if you look at WoWprogress and see the people who actually cleared the content that everyone was complaining was too easy, it wasn't that many.

I think you're like alot of players who envisioned BC and Vanilla being this Ultra hard era but alot of what was hard back then was glitches that got fixed, farming resistance gear, and CC. The content was being cleared just as quickly then as it was being cleared in WOTLK but now everyone has a chance to see it...in Cata they're bringing back CC which i thought should keep things exciting because casual doesn't mean stupid anymore, it means i don't have time to raid forever but people like you really grind my gears with you're nostalgic look back at BC and Vanilla because if you go by the numbers its basically the same story the same amount of people that had exclusive access to T# gear are the same people who managed to get the Black/Plagued Proto and the Rusted/Iron Proto and the new frostwyrms (in their respective patches)...

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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:27 am 
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Buddhist, complain about the game being easy when you actually killed anything that isn't welfare since 3 months ago ok.

I fucking love people like you who think you are so fucking good and bitch about how the game is so fucking casual friendly when your progression is as good as a casual raider.

How about removing those rose tinted glasses and learn the meaning of nostalgia?

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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:31 am 
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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:35 pm 
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bakafish wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Buddhist, complain about the game being easy when you actually killed anything that isn't welfare since 3 months ago ok.

I fucking love people like you who think you are so fucking good and bitch about how the game is so fucking casual friendly when your progression is as good as a casual raider.

How about removing those rose tinted glasses and learn the meaning of nostalgia?

First of all I'm raiding as a social member not as a raider and I do not put me feet in 25-man anymore because thanks it was enough oh and we are not progressing as a casual raider guild. Second of all noone asked you to comment what I've posted. If you like the game currently as it is then enjoy every single moment of it. I miss vanilla and pre-bc, yes it could be it's just me, but we are not the same. And no I'm ain't that fucking good cuz I will never be as good as you! Just play enjoy the content or do whatever you want, that's how I feel and that's what I think you have no right to judge. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: So blizzard will change their raiding
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:09 pm 
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New infoz on badges/arena points.

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We're continuing to refine the badge/emblem and PvP point systems in Cataclysm and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

Our primary goal when approaching badges in Cataclysm is to address a lot of the confusion that comes with these currency systems. To that end we're changing badges to a more straightforward point system, similar to the ones we've used for a while for Arenas and Battlegrounds. There will be a total of four types of points you can earn in Cataclysm (two for PvE and two for PvP), and these will remain the same even as we introduce new content.

Here's the breakdown:

PvE
Hero Points -- Low-tier, easier-to-get PVE points. Maximum cap to how many you can own, but no cap to how quickly you can earn them. Earned from most dungeons. (most like the current Emblem of Triumph)
Valor Points -- High-tier, harder-to-get PvE points. Maximum cap to how many you can own, as well as a cap to how many you can earn per week. Earned from Dungeon Finder daily Heroic and from raids. (most like the current Emblem of Frost)

PvP
Honor Points -- Low-tier, easier-to-get PVP points. There will be a maximum cap to how many you can own, but no cap to how quickly you can earn them. Earned from most PvP activities.
Conquest Points -- High-tier, harder-to-get PvP points. There will be a maximum cap to how many you can own, and a cap to how many you can earn per week. Earned from winning Rated Battlegrounds or Arenas. (currently called Arena Points)

When a new tier of raiding gear is released or a new PvP season begins, your higher tier of points will be converted into the lower tier. For instance, if a new tier of raid gear is released, your Valor points will be converted to Hero points, and similarly if a new PvP season begins your Conquest points will be converted to Honor points. Of course that means with these new releases you'll always begin without any of the higher tier of points, and thus be unable to stockpile them.

As noted for Conquest points, the Rated Battlegrounds and Arenas will be sharing this same point type. Because of that, it will in fact be possible to get the best PvP items without setting foot in Arena; however, more powerful armor and weapons will of course require more Conquest points, so players who win their matches more often will still gear up faster. We're removing personal rating requirements on almost all items; they're definitely removed for weapons. We might offer a few items to the absolute best players based on personal rating, largely as cosmetic or 'bragging rights' type items. And you'll have the option of purchasing the previous season’s gear with the more readily available Honor points.

We do plan to have a way to convert Honor points (PvP) into Hero points (PvE), and vice versa, at a loss. The conversions will be possible, but it won't be a 1:1 rate, and you'll have fewer points after the conversion process. We won't allow the higher tiers to be exchanged for each other, however.

To explain the reasoning for the weekly cap on points for the higher tiers, this is to provide flexibility in how players choose to earn the points without feeling like they have to do all of the content as often as it is available. If your Valor income from raiding is sufficient, you may not feel the need to run Dungeon Finder every night, or perhaps even at all. Likewise, a PvP player could choose to participate in a lot of Rated Battlegrounds but no Arenas, or focus on both, and still be able to earn the points they want.

We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!

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