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nuklear u are free to believe in natural selection. i am free to believe in intelligent design. first of all, STOP making me come back to this thread.... lol
ok now, lets do this calmly WITHOUT any "pokes", as u put it.
lets start this off in a new direction: (for nuklear and resise i guess )
do u believe time was finite at once or has always been infinite? just a simple yes or no would do, unless u feel the need for an explanation.

"The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman."
-Anonymous

so tell me, when u look up to space and see all the vast array of "beauty", it is natural selection? u demand for "physical" proof of the admittedly unseen and abstract, when u should look at all the "physical" doings of GOD. With no GOD, how do u explain all the abstract things in the world? If everything comes from something, how do u make the abstract, do u or any other being have the power to do that? heck, then even human emotions and feelings are just "chemical".

"If there is no God, then all that exists is time and chance acting on matter. If this is true then the difference between your thoughts and mine correspond to the difference between shaking up a bottle of Mountain Dew and a bottle of Dr. Pepper. You simply fizz atheistically and I fizz theistically. This means that you do not hold to atheism because it is true , but rather because of a series of chemical reactions… … Morality, tragedy, and sorrow are equally evanescent. They are all empty sensations created by the chemical reactions of the brain, in turn created by too much pizza the night before. If there is no God, then all abstractions are chemical epiphenomena, like swamp gas over fetid water. This means that we have no reason for assigning truth and falsity to the chemical fizz we call reasoning or right and wrong to the irrational reaction we call morality. If no God, mankind is a set of bi-pedal carbon units of mostly water. And nothing else."
Douglas Wilson

With no GOD, how did the universal laws of morality, science, and mathematics, just to name a few, come to be? I mean come on people, u believe that these "abstract" universally accepted laws just came to be? These same laws that are the foundations for all the scientific evidence u use to try to suppress or reject the existence of GOD. I mean dont u see the irony in this?

+million to l05tfr33k7's post.

This is going nowhere...scientists defined evolution and explained its mechanism with evidence..but they failed to define the source of which the first spark of life came from...i dont need to study more than the general idea of evolution to come up with this...its basic.

I know i might seem narrow minded..but frankly..so are you guys..just cause you spent some time studying the whole theory and at the end to find someone who didnt even bother to read more than the basic idea come and argue with you with nothing but basic facts and knowledge might piss you off i know..but its just the truth..evolution being proved does not mean God didnt exist.

And please spare me the pissed off 'omg you're so ignorant' attitude..you guys being so pissed off and offensive (while i wasnt offensive at all)..it isnt helping in the 'we are smart and you are stupid' war.

If i am going to believe in evolution sooner or later i'll reach a dead end...okay this created that and that was produced as a result of...bla bla bla...who created the mechanism...the energy...who created..not who transformed this to that.

Call me ignorant or whatever for standing for something as basic as this..so far everyone is giving me vague answers..i dont want an explanation of the evolution system or how it occured..i want a source..as i said earlier..who created the first spark of life.

This is reaching a dead end..if this was replied to with some more vague answers with offensive attitude then i'm not gonna waste my time anymore on this topic.

eh thats why i said, it would be nice if they could reply without the "pokes".
cant we all just get along?

I don't believe in natural selection, I'm convinced of it. Research and proof has told me that natural selection occurs. Nothing plausible opposes that and nothing plausible supports your idea.

I've not done enough research to say either way. I have said before though, another time when reading the whole thread would've come in handy, that I don't care. I has no effect on me now so I really don't care how the universe became. I am curious as I how we developed though.

I believe natural selection only has to due with creatures evolving over time. Planets, stars, comets, etc don't have thoughts, as far as we know, and so aren't included in natural selection.

Not a scientist but I don't think you need physical proof to be scientific. There is energy that we can't 'see' but we can see the effects of it and test it. Generically, abstract things just are. Like you said, feelings are chemical.

They are universal not because someone or something gave them to us but because they're already programmed into our brains. Things like science and math came to be because we experimented, gained knowledge, and were just plain curious.

I matters so much to you that you throw reason and logic out of the equation? If so, why?
Besides you being ignorant in this thread just believing in itself is ignorant because you're choosing to ignorant facts and irrationalize things you don't understand,

Time is a measure created by man, we use it to comprehend what is, has been, and will be. I don't get why it matters whether we believe it's finite or not. Imagine a world without man, would the concept of time still exist? Personally I don't think it's possible to know such things, and claiming one did would be foolish.



Natural selection, like these so called "abstract" things in the world, can and do happen on their own. That's the idea behind it anyway. However, I'm sure for you everything on Earth can be simply explained by saying God is responsible. Trying to argue sense into somebody that isn't even open to the idea that there are other possibilities is just a waste of time. You can say everything comes from something without necessarily knowing exactly what that thing is. People of faith should know this well.



lol You do know that common morality, science, and mathematics existed before religions like Christianity were even around? Yes these things "just came to be" because people were smart enough to think them up. For the longest time, mankind didn't even believe in ONE god, and some didn't even believe in god in the same sense people today do. Yet governments were still established, and morality, science and mathematics still came about.

I would like to clear some things.

1. Hootsh and LostFreak, niether of you understand how Science works yet you insist on attemting to dispute its scientific theories
   
2. Every one of your arguments have been ignorantly argued; your basis is that Evolution is based on faith as is Religion. Your base [starting piont] is completely false. If you don't understand empiricism then leave this discussion now, you assume and assume and assume; your only 'evidence' [not evidence] is your faith. Unless you can provide real proof what you have to say is Null and Void.
   
3. Regarding what sparked that life: primordial soup theory. Regarding the Pretense for said theory: Meteorites and Asteroids crashing into earth during the foundation of this solar system bringing the building blocks of life [amino acids] in their crystallized form [ice].
   
4. There is no discussion or debate among the scientific community regarding Evolution VS "Intelligent Design" [Creationism, Genesis, and God: NOT SCIENCE]

Lets Pit the process that brought Scientist towards the conclusion that natural selection is a reoccurring event in the world against the process that brought Imbeciles to the conclusion that "Intelligent Design" is a science.

Evolution's process:

Observation
Hypothesis [layman's theory]
Testing [experiment]
Conclusion
Debate
More Testing
*Theory* [scientific Theory]

"Intelligent Design":

Faith... and a Book

lets look at the Key component of both:
{evolution}: Empiricism
{intelligent design}: God... and a woman from a rib.

Feel free to argue what you don't understand, but rest assured that every argument you bring up will be demolished by yours truly.

So now being atheist is = being a criminal?


I have to agree with Judge, Nuklear and Reise. They have said what was needed to be said, i'm off this thread too

yes..evolution is supported by science..while religion is not..but just cause its supported by science it doesnt mean its true.

There are no proofs needed..proof of what?...i am the one asking for a proof...besides we are not talking science here..you explained a theory and i'm simply asking questions.

Aminoacids...electricity/lighting/energy..methane/ammonia/hydrogen/water...etc..all that is great and is proven to be true okey..but you're still thinking inside the box, still describing the mechanism of evolution but havent yet described what created the mechanism....think of the universe as a clean white sheet..or as a program to be written..some one had to write the code, you understood the code..but you failed to explain how was the code written..it cant write it self...someone had to create the mechanism that enabled the creation of amino acids..someone had to create the mechanism of which the amino acids evolved..if they evolved...you only proved that they evolved and you explained how they did evolve..but u are speaking of it as if there was certain standard rule that we shouldnt question...like the atoms existence for instance or the electrons which are the source of energy...who created the electrons..i dont think it was evolution now was it?

Anyways this is a dead end..i'm kinda tired.

God wasn't a part of newton and his law of gravity. Do you actually think God goes around putting funny ideas into peoples heads so that they can be geniuses and figure out principles of physics and math?

And they are not "abstract" laws. The law of gravity is something you cannot deny. The law of conservation of energy is something you cannot deny. Laws have been proved and proved and proved before. I don't see anyone giving proof that god established these laws.

I'm sure someone already noted before me, but the theory of evolution is ONLY a theory, not a law. There is enough evidence that most people agree, but not enough for it to become a law.

am just curious .. why cant people creat one living thing from nothing - away from cloning - ? even if a fly ? even if u have all the cells and organs , u cant bring it to life , u wont be able to bring it to life , why cant a guy come back to life even if u make his heart keep beating a bit , whenever u stop it will stop , he will never be back .. ? maybe cauze its SOUL left him ? .. u cant see his soul .. but it do exist .. maybe god also ^^ ?

jeah .. dont fill me up with ur scientific bullshit xD i am just saying what i think maybe its ignorant but i dont care .

No proof of either.

cute oxymoron

It is and you should.

As stated before, hootsh obviously doesn't understand science so there's no use trying to reason with him.

But science and its theories are based on what we understand as truth right?

As for the situation you brought up about the clean white sheet, assuming "somebody" had to be there to write it is in itself ridiculous. Same with assuming there was ever a clean white sheet. If you can, try to think of things with more "what ifs" involved. I personally believe it's impossible to know, and foolish to assume, whether "somebody" created existence or not. I believe it's something that's really beyond our comprehension, but as mankind gets more intelligent, different theories doing their best to explain it using facts, will come along. For all we know, everything in existence could be nothing more than a fleeting thought in someone's mind within an entirely different dimension. Also, there are so many things in this universe that we have no idea about, that there could very well be something discovered at some point that totally changes our way of thinking and understanding. At this point we just haven't discovered enough to totally determine how it all happened. And we probably never will.

Theories are just theories. Science hasn't said "THIS is absolutely the way the universe was created and religion is WRONG." Science has merely used knowledge to the best of its ability to create a possibility. I guarantee you as soon as more knowledge comes along, theories will change and new ones will be accepted as mankind's "best guess" as to how things came to be.

Believers in God however, will continue to write everything off as God's doing. With nothing but faith as their justification. They will fail to realize that mankind at different points in time, has believed in such a vast array of different deities and Gods, that just the sheer number of different beliefs almost by itself disproves theistic and polytheistic religion. If your religion is the right religion, what about everyone else who practiced other religions? Are they to be punished by your God(s)? And if not, then what makes your religion the right one? And if it's NOT the right one, why call it religion?

IMO Ever since polytheism was left out in favor of worshiping one all-powerful God, religion has been used to control and scare people into becoming obedient followers. You need only to look at the Ten Commandments and the seven deadly sins for the outline of this control. And of course you will be conveniently punished for eternity in Hell should you decide not to obey. That is what generates the fear, and most modern religions follow the same trend. People are basically scared into doing what their God says, whose very existence is challenged daily by science and its ever-developing understanding of the world and the universe.

Personally I can't see how you could believe in a God who would give mankind free will, and the intelligence to challenge his existence, only to turn around and punish them for it. "Oh but that's the test of faith!" If mankind was made in God's image, he SHOULD be perfect, but we know very well that mankind is definitely not. And what stopped God from erasing his work and starting over with that clean white page when he realized man had sinned? The guy made all of existence, you're going to tell me he couldn't just go "Woops" and hit the reset button?

Obviously this is all my opinion. If it rubs you the wrong way I'm sorry, but what I wrote is truly what I believe. I've said it before, give me sufficient proof that a God exists, and I will believe. Until then I'm going to stick with what mankind has learned, and the theories he puts together based on that knowledge.

Damn, I didn't want to write a whole essay on this sh1t lol. Oh well.

dude , u can write alot bullshit >.< , am not that good at writing omg .. just shut up this is dead end , u prove nothing we prove nothing .

actually you are right, this is a dead end. Reise has just made an oustanding post regarding faith and I have to agree with him.

If you read lol that's kinda my point. Nobody can claim they're right, but science at least uses what we understand as truth to try and explain what can't really be explained. I just have a strong opinion when it comes to theistic religion.

- According to my own brain i can explain to myself that god exists , but i cant explain to u sorry .

And i read what u said above , and i just ..think u keep repeating what u got over and over again , and nothing is really interesting or can make someone change his mind .. u r science just prove some points , it dont prove everything , it kinda knows nothing.. when compared to all the facts and things we dont know about this universe .. and it cant prove that god totally doesnt exist .. just bullshit .

its like People got some brains now thinking themselves as gods cauze they got some scientific facts please make something come to life and i will worship u .

Faith , god something that cant be seen , but it can be sensed , thats what i believe , we chose to live for our beliefs .. so what u say isnt important anyway .. u and ur stupid sciences .

Did science molest you?

Yeh but I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Do you think I could change your mind? I don't think so lol.

Science can't prove everything because we don't know enough. Unfortunately we probably won't be around long enough to truly know for sure either. We should be thankful though that we have the ability to learn and develop theories. Science embraces that ability, faith more or less shuns it. If you want to believe in God that's entirely your choice, just don't tell me science is stupid or wrong when facts and truth are at its foundation.

science isnt stupid , science is a gift , u get it when u use ur brain to make ur life go on .. and enjoy it in a better way , god never said science is forbiden , actually scientists are praised , nuklear shut up .

anyway , i wanted to know also xD if cells consists of atoms.. and everything in our body is atoms .. how come normal atoms and stuff cant think ? or have life .. solid stuff for example? O.o cauze it dont have brain ? brain is also atoms .. and it can make us think ?
boo .

hmm ok seriously this is my last post on this, no matter on who posts what after this, cause this is really getting us nowhere. ok im gonna repeat the same "ignorant" points.
its funny to me how science has all the right answers today, but when it comes to creation, they deny it with evolution, and when some valid points come up against it, they say hey its just a theory. Like the point hootsh was trying to make, u guys simply just try to be clever by using the onyl way u can respond when ur asked that how did it all start: some times its evolution, then how did that start, from amino acids, who came from asteroids bla bla which keeps going on and on. All u do is extend the issue by diverting away from an actual answer by saying how something specific came from something else, but now how EVERYTHING came to be. And when the issue of "abstract" thing comes, i honestly think whatever u guys said was bullshit. no offense. Nuklear was saying that either he hasn't done enough research on that kind of stuff or science hasn't gotten that far. its funny how science explains everything today and doesn't have enough info on creation???? Also, all these things u talk about who the world was created in 7 days and the women was created from the man's rib or whatever, u imply as if ur saying that for all of us, me and hootsh really, when actually i am muslim and im pretty sure hootsh is also. So instead of going against the Bible to make ur pt in this discussion, talk on what we believe and i would more appreciate it if u do. not that it matters cause i REALLY intend to not post in this thread anymore.

Reise i respect u on whatever u said and that we are all entitle to our opinions. BUT Nuklear on the other hand however has a serious attitude issue, and i mean it. You cant talk calmly to others, u try to force ur opinion on em. i said before also, stop with the "pokes".

Reise u said "we should be thankful though..."...to who??? i mean i love the idea itself that religious pl can think a specific higher power for things that they or humans admittedly cannot do on their own. Who else can atheists thank for things that humans cant do? Chance? Your "chemical" things. I mean honestly how STUPID is it to think that all feelings, emotions, and abstract things just came to be? I just cant understand that and im sure u cant come up with any "sufficient proof" as u said to answer that without speaking some bullshit or that we haven't gotten the answer yet and we never will. well then keep guessing.

about the concept of time, i 100% agree with what someone here said that its a concept that man created himself for obvious reasons. but what other word is there to describe anything before the idea of keeping time came into man's head. For the sole purpose of arguing in this topic, we say time, so dont put ur way out of it. The point again goes to if the world was MADE/CREATED/ETC. at one specific point (happy i didnt say time now? ), then the SINGULARITY, which caused the big bang, which created the universe, asteroids, amino acids, LIFE, us, etc..., come from? where did that singularity come from? u guys just divert away from the answer cause there is NO answer at all besides a higher power or intelligent designer, or whatever u wana call it, creating it. Science can NEVER create life without using something already living maybe. But never make life out of nothing. Then how did the first LIFE, or amino acids if u wanna get into technicalities, come to be?

I dont go against what science has done for mankind, it is truly stunning indeed if u think how far we have come today compared to the beginning of mankind, homo sapiens, whatever. And when u say that why would GOD make science for us and give us knowledge going against him, and that "to test ur faith" is stupid...Well, im not sure but for the major monotheistic religions, or at least for Muslims, it is said that GOD created everything including evil, to indeed test our faith. I know (im not gonna use believe now, since like nuclear pointed out, I KNOW, which i believe he got from that youtube video lol, which is perfectly valid )that Indeed GOD created science and made everything in the world so that we can understand it, but then we also have the choice of pride or faith, of thanking ourselves for everything we have done, or thanking ourselves and GOD for giving us that intellect. But that goes into all other topics.

But seriously, u call us ignorant and go into technicalities, nothing more. Technicalities which are intended to confuse it. Of course, i dont know alot of science, and we all should learn more science but that dont mean u can use that as an excuse to avoid the simplest of issues, and divert from the question by getting into technicalities which we dont know of, such as a lot of scientific theories, in order to confuse us. Nuklear u have avatar of Dr. Ron Paul, whom I admire for truly being the only honest person in the race this year, and yet u get into so many technicalities...something Ron Pual criticizes. Like he said instead of getting into these technicalities of who said what and asteroids , amino acids, theories, experiments, bla bla bla, answer the true question of where the "spark of life" came from. Where it all originated.

It may seem to u im dragging on the same question, but i in no way think u solved that question and im sure science will never be able to, and will always be saying that "we haven't got there yet, but we will eventually". Im glad that i know there is someone who is responsible for all that we know, and there is a higher being out there whom I can be thankful to for everything and hope for more understand of the world. But i truly pity u guys who don't understand the simpleness of the creation fo the world and get into complexions and technicalities. Whatever, like Reise said none of us will change our mind, which makes us all ignorant, but that doesn't make were all wrong. One of the sides is wrong, the other is right, simple as that. The fact that u dont respect what the other thinks and simply mock them is wrong, not really saying that all u guys do.

Well im out, if u guys feel like talking more , pm me. Ill be reading here occasionally bu t i intend this to be my last post in this thread. I hope none of us took any offenses against each others, and hope were all cool with each other

Off to other threads. Later.

i u.

EDIT:
Removed rant, was out of Line, and read the faith thread it renders this thread pointless.
posting.php?mode=reply&f=12&t=67354

Summary: You don't understand how science works, I'm not going to sit here and teach you. I do not have the time nor the patience to teach others, I am rash and hothead when in th "heat" of a discussion. I get easily annoyed at petty things, such as: people lacking a certain quota of knowledge.

I am sry hootsh lostfreak and Angel, my rant was bigoted and foolish; i will make sure it won't happen again.
@Reise and Jstar, Scientific theory is a law that is subject to change. Normal Theory is sparked by an observation and insight.[this one is the guess]

lolol , too lazy 2 read all that .. okay mr. judge u know everything please stfu .

I've suggested this before ,but I don't think anyone replied to me here, so I don't know what people think about it. Why can't evolution be a way to explain the details of the process God used to create the universe? The Bible never went into those details.

It says 6 days (rest on 7th) but "a day" to an eternal diety could represent a billion years. Also, is the Bible talking about "solar days" as in our solar system, or a day in some other part of the universe, or something else. I think the term is all relative.

Just a thought.

EDIT: Quite abstract, but that is philosophy.
@Riese, bullshit was the most appropriate term, in the "heat" of the moment

lol Thankful that we developed intelligence like this, not to anyone specifically. I'm sure that's hard for you to comprehend though.

And if you're trying not to "poke" at people, you should start by ditching the narrow-mindedness and calling everyone else's arguments "bullshit". It really doesn't help the situation or your stance on the subject.

Anyway, I believe it's just as stupid to believe emotions, thoughts, intelligence and shit like that was given to us exclusively by God. That's a really selfish view. You really need to do some reading, I never said anywhere that you guys were wrong or ignorant. Judging by your long post on the issue I think you would actually do well to read mine.

Edit: I'm starting to agree with Judge, it doesn't seem like you guys are being even the least bit open to the possibility of there being other things responsible for existence. If you can't even do that you can't really be taken seriously in this sort of debate. It's like talking to a wall. There's no technicalities, and there's nobody here twisting words or any shit like that.

pics or didnt happen

Just going to poke my head into this thread for a moment here.
I do not have anywhere near the patience to try and argue on a scale like this, especially when all of the arguments on one side are complete rubbish. Not because of the stance mind you, but because of the intent with the argument. Reise made an amazing post, that should have stopped this conversation entirely. Prometheus did as well.

Of course there are still many points left.

To Hootsh:
If the universe were a program to be written, and someone had to write it. Wouldn't that logic also state that someone/something had to create the person to write the program for our universe? Its a never ending circle by your logic, which completely disproves your entire *argument right off the bat.
That excludes all of the other numerous times you have contradicted yourself.



Personally I think this is a good hypothesis, but I have one qualm with it. The people who wrote about god taking 6 days to make the universe lived in our reality, where the only day they knew was the 24 hour day. How was it then possible for there to have been an alternate day they were speaking of?




*No offense to those who believe in a god and the theory of creationism*
It seems to me that any argument for creationism is always full of more holes than swiss cheese, and that contradicting ones self seems to be the overall "theme". Arguments for evolution are simply more convincing due to those facts.

Honestly it seems only the narrow minded argue the side of creationism. There is a possibility for a very well lain out argument in favor of creationism, I have just never seen one because you almost never find an open minded person taking that stance.
There may be a very good reason why that is. I don't want to start another argument on that again though.

Most people are born, with God being made believe. There surrounding community all believes in God, so they are pretty much forced to do it too [peer pressure I guess]? IMO, God is more of a belief/relief on someone, as if they could trust on him to help you/others.
But in other cases, it can cause much stress such as going to church or temple, and stuff.

I consider myself to be an open minded person. I believe in God, creation and all that. However, I'm also a scientist. I can understand the science behind evolution, and see how different species are very similar at the DNA level, humans vs. monkeys, flies vs. ants...

As for the 'writers' of the Bible only knowing about Earth 24-hour days, their interpretation wouldn't really matter. If they were told (through some visions, God actually talking to them, etc) to write "days", it doesn't necessarily matter what the writer thought it meant.

There are different possibilities (again assuming the Bible is true). The writers of Genesis could have been explicitly told to write "days". They could have had visions where they 'saw' the sun come up, God create light, and the sun go down (1 day). I could speculate even farther.

My point is, I haven't seen anything in the bible that defines the length of "the Nth day".

I suppose one could also say that it really did happen in 6 24-hour days, but since God is 'all powerful' and everything, he can cram billions of years of work into 24 hours.

There's no way to know for sure of course, except where evolution is concerned. Maybe all of this is just an advanced computer simulation sitting in a computer chip on some Starfleet captain's desk.