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imo there isnt really a middle ground in this argument because there are so many differences between science and the bible (i.e. rib woman, talking snake, etc.)

Holy crap. We have this kind of thread here in this section? How the hell did I miss this. Okay, that's it.

I'm too lazy to go read all 8 pages, so the next pro-ID statement after this post will get lectured.

lol I think everyone who posted in the first 7 pages is pretty much done.

It's not often we have religion threads, so write up.

Meh. It's not really my style to start the arguments. Since theists outnumber atheists and agnostics in most threads, they're the ones who usually start topics, so I rarely make them. Besides, I already have my hands full from other message boards. xD

How about pro-both?

Creationism and evolution? They are reconcilable at a certain extent. Evolution doesn't have anything to do on how life formed. That field belongs to abiogenesis. Evolution only needs the simplest form of a self replicating machine to work with, through natural selection, if possible, or through genetic drift, which is the most likely initiating route. For creationism to fit in, one would have the creator(s) create the simplest replicating life form, which eventually starts evolution.

If, however, you are referring to Intelligent Design and evolution, we hit two contradicting camps. Both sides argue explanations on the origins of biological diversity. One side says the source of diversification is from an intelligent designer. The other side says it's through natural selection and genetic drift.

If you know a way to reconcile both sides, I'd love to hear it.

I was mostly referring to an intelligent designer, let's call him God, creating the whole process of evolution. He could also have his hands in the pot so to speak to help the process along similarly to perhaps how people breed animals to get better, stronger ones. (I saw a video on myspace about "super cows".

God can at least be there to oversee the process, and possibly introduce things into the equation when things go wrong. I suppose that could also be some alien life form out there that is conducting a huge science experiment, rather than an almighty diety. However if that were the case, it would come into question where that species came from, and where its creators came from.... The only way to stop that progression is to "conveniently" say there's a God at the beginning.

Having an intelligent designer oversee evolution begs the question of necessity. Evolution can work on its own without the need of a designer or anyone to simply observe the process. In fact, you can just have genetic drift, without natural selection, and still have evolution. For you to assert that this god had to interfere along the process to guide evolution, hard evidence is required. Not only that, but also a sound reason why a designer is required in evolution.

Using the God of the Gaps for convenience stagnates our pursuit of knowledge and leaves us ignorant of the world around us. Where, what, or who initiated life? As a man of science, I stand in conviction with a solid answer: I do not know.

"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. " - Carl Sagan

Your stance on this whole issue truly confuses me. You say you are a believer of god, but you yourself have said that this is all up to speculation that there is a god. You also said that it could all be up to convenience that we have created a story of a god.

Where exactly do you sit on this fence?



Interesting point, but where exactly does this fit in? lol



I'd like to bring something up here, because I'm not very knowledgeable on the topic, but would like to see if anyone else does.
What does every here make of the numerous other gospels that were written in Jesus's time?
I'm not sure where to find proof, but I've read somewhere that at one point other gospels have been found or told of that wrote of Jesus being simply an incredible person with an amazing ethics system, rather than a mystical being with the powers to heal others, and turn wine to blood.
Personally that sounds much more believable to me, but like I said, I don't know the topic too well myself.

I guess the way I see it, I'd rather at least believe in something than to just 'not know'. I can still pursue answers, but in the meantime I have my beliefs.

I think any process or system or experiment needs someone to oversee things to make sure it is working correctly. I'd try and think more in depth about this and come up with more to talk about, but honestly whenever I sit down to think or type here, I'm needed elsewhere. My daughter needs to eat, she wants me to read her a story, etc etc.

my daughter



I believe in God. I always have. It's how I was brought up. I've always been brought up as a Christian, I think the church was Baptist. However, I don't go to church anymore and basically consider myself an independent fundamentalist - core beliefs, but don't follow a specific denomination if that's the right term. I just feel I don't need to be told by a pastor what I should believe, and I can study on my own if I so choose.

I can also respect that others do not believe, or believe in different god(s), and that's ok. I meant it's up to speculation for some people that there is a god that created this universe. I believe that there is a God, our creator. However, there is no scientific way I can ever know for sure, and I realize that. So, I'm basically left to speculation and assumptions, which I choose to believe.

It really is convenient, at least to some people, to play the "God card" to explain the unexplainable. I may be a believer, but I also am open minded enough to take other views into consideration. I don't just sit back, cross my arms and say "God did all of this and I don't care how or why." Maybe I'll be proven wrong someday, and find out there is no God... but at this time, I have no reason to not believe.

Hopefully that makes some sense.

Yes, it does. I have a lot of respect for people that have that view. I share it in a way. I have what I believe, but I'm not going to push it onto others and (I try) to not let others views bother me.

great post, i just had to come here and say that. and +million to ur comment on the church/pastor thing =]

QFT PR0METHEUS

I very much respect you for saying what little theists have the cojones and intellectual prowess to do.

he does back up what he believes and I respect that but I cant see my self giving all my fiath to something I have no idea about

You negate reason for the sake of convenience? Fine by me, but the moment you pass on these baseless assumptions and speculations cloaked as "truth" to others, say a child or a daughter, I just hope you take time in reflection.

This is not an accusation. Take it as a forewarning.



I'll be waiting. In the meantime, I applaud your open-mindedness. Don't loose it.

stupid chemical reactions

I don't think I'm negating reason. I'm not just blindly accepting my faith, unwilling to consider other options.

I don't claim that my beliefs are "truth", but that they are simply my beliefs. Of course beliefs can change over time. I plan to teach my children about my beliefs, and perhaps even the beliefs of others (although I'm not as educated in those beliefs), and let my children decide for themselves how they choose to (or not to) believe.

… who's to say god didn’t hawk a loogy on a giant rock and throw it at earth??

I'd believe that before I believe a talking snake in a tree and a talking burning bush.

That or maybe some aliens 300 lightyears away decided to do an experiment with some frozen amino acids they had in a petri dish on their desk. They had a spare hyper-warp starship available to send these amino acids out WAY beyond any portion of the universe they had ever been to.

I think it's fine to believe in that, or believe in God, or that we are all part of The Matrix... It's also fine to study science, possibly questioning your own beliefs, or reaffirming them, as you search for answers.



You would find it easier to believe that there is this almighty eternal diety out there named God that likes to spit on rocks and throw them at planets, rather than believing that a snake or burning bush can be made to talk? The snake and bush could just be hallucinations of the person that "saw" them.

Yes, but a spitting god is way cooler than the dickhead most people believe in

i think god would agree tbh. he gets a bad name by fundamentalist militant assholes who want to control eveything and everyone for their own gain. The god you see preached off in most cases is just that person, hding behind the shroud of "the supernatural." wizard of oz syndrome ftw...

But therein lies what faith is. Believing blindly in something.
It is your own choice to believe what you believe, no one can force you to believe god spit on a rock, or that bush really did just talk to you (no it wasn't the toad).

That is what makes humans unique, we have the ability to reason, and create our own theories for why things are.

A faith that is not blind? It seems that we're having some minor miscommunication here:

Define faith.



It is perfectly fine to pass on one's beliefs to others, especially to his/her children. (Again, I emphasize, no accusations here.) However, the underlying question is: which beliefs will be passed on? (theological, scientific, philosophical, ethical, etc.) How does one determine which ones to pass? How are they passed as (truth, speculation, etc.)?

Since, as you have openly claimed that your faith can be wrong, I hope you pass it on with that warning.

Yes my faith, and really anyone else's could possibly be wrong. Faith is blind as in blindly believing in it without proof, but I can still be open minded enough to know that I could be proven wrong someday.

I certainly won't lie to my children and pass on my faith as absolute truth. It will probably come across as truth, but I'd like to also tell them at the same time that other people don't believe these things, and that's ok. We can never truely know one way or another.

Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."


absolute zerk is not 458 its



By international agreement, absolute zero is defined as precisely 0 K on the Kelvin scale, which is a thermodynamic (absolute) temperature scale, and −273.15 on the Celsius scale.[1] Absolute zero is also precisely equivalent to 0 °R on the Rankine scale (also a thermodynamic temperature scale), and −459.67 degrees on the Fahrenheit scale

that kid is pretty smart but in the end he is wrong and i can say it in many ways but i will admit that this was very different from anything i have heard before

-Regarding the point of who created God: Cant we just discuss first who created us and then discuss who created God?..dont mean to be narrow minded here but 1 problem at a time plz lol.

-Regarding the point of why would God create us with free will instead of automatically worshiping him..now..i dunno how God thinks..but i think creating a whole race of mankind just to worship him would be pretty boring lol..besides he already created angels to worship him 100% all the time (i know, i sound like a kid)..i know its pretty silly to talk about him as if he was my friend lol but i think its pretty reasonable that he created us with free will.

-Regarding the whole evolution theory..lets think of it from another direction..lets make an example of this game, silkroad.
At silkroad lets say you got a shield elixir..and used it on a shield and the shield was made +1..now that was made due to some commands written in the code of the game...same thing with real life..scientists explained how was the "shield +1" created..they explained the "certain commands of code" that created it..but they did not explain who wrote the code..in the case of the game it was joymax programmers...in the case of real life........fill in the blanks...i dunno about you guys but the idea of "this always existed..no one created it"..doesnt seem very logical to me..i find it hard to believe that there was a *poof* and suddenly came out a big rock that was divided to other rocks..i find it hard to believe that there was a *poof* and suddenly there were electrons rotating around a nucleus in such a magnificent way.


Anyways..i'm kinda tired of this topic..no hard feelings guys..y'all suk..just kiddin

I'm out of this topic, bye.

But I'm multi-tasking. I like to try and solve multiple problems at the same time!




Life would be pretty boring without free will. The thing is, if God is all knowing (omnipotent?), then he knows exactly what each and every one of us is going to do at every second in life. If that is true, then how do we have any free will at all? Right now, I have the ability to continue writing this post and submit it, or decide to cancel it and close out of SRF. God knows what I will do, so do I really have free will?



That's exactly what I've tried to say before. It seems logical to me that evolution could be the explanation of "those lines of code" or the explanation of exactly how everything in this world is made and evolves into new things - an explanation of the process. Who made that process? I don't think the process itself just "came to be" or was "always there."

Who knows, maybe we'll find out someday that the God some of us worship is some scientist from an alternate universe that really did create our entire universe through this evolutionary process with alien technology that is billions of years ahead of our time.

One interesting point I found in the Bible, in Genesis where they talk about creation: it says God created the "heavens and the earth" and separated the "waters" with a firmament (which he called Heaven). Then he separated the waters below the firmament into land (with grass, plants, etc) and sea (with fish, etc). What about the "waters" above heaven? I don't think it ever addresses that. It almost sounds like the "waters" were always there, and that God created the "heavens and the earth" in those "waters" and used the "waters" below Heaven to make what we know as Earth.

Just food for thought.

Ahhh now were getting somewhere. The concept of "free will." Do you truly believe you will is free? Do you even understand the phrase "free will." you my friend don’t have free will.

and before you respond to tell me you do, i suggest you find out the meaning of the words free and will.