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I'm going to break this down:
If it's supernatural then it's not real.
If it involves mysticism then it's not real.
If it involves deities then it's not real.
The metaphysical? Not real.

Ancient people didn't have the same tools or understanding of their surroundings that we have today. Back then the Earth was flat, there were thousands of gods, and your God (the god of Abraham) was competing for survival. Unicorns and dragons are real as far as the bible is concerned. If you wish to submit to irrational fear mongering then so be it but I will have no part of it. Can you really take what these people said thousands of years ago and take it seriously today?

If I were to say I have a friend. My friend is "X". Let's say "X" is invisible and promised to take me to a fun place when I die. Let's say you can only see "X" if you believe. Now let's say "X" gets very angry when I break the law. This idea of X existing probably makes no sense but let's keep goinh. Finally replace all the Xs with Zeus, God, Mars, Jesus, Vishnu, Thor, or Odin. It doesn't matter what god it is. Be it the god of Abraham or a Nordic god. It still makes no sense. You see I don't propose that some mystical being that lives in la-la land created us all because it is is unproven, unprovable, and unthinkable. It defies logic and reason for faith is the surrender of those very traits that define as human beings.

Try to put yourself in the shoes of some ancient person. If a child is struck by lightning and faints then moments later a deer is struck and the child wakes up those people will attribute it to some mystical force. Maybe a sky god. The point is gods exist because we created them not because they created us. Sure the lessons most religions teach have merit but there's a limit to the teachings. Most of it is outdated. I could go on and on but it's a pointless battle. You can't beat faith, you just can't win.

I already said I don't take the big bang seriously. Just because it's the accepted theory atm doesn't mean I should accept it.

Here's another thing: Nothing made something?
Well what did god make us from? NOTHING. So something made something else from nothing but what made that something that made something else from nothing? Oh, that's an easy fix: it's always been there. So what is that something? It's energy. So you're using a tenant of Science to prove that your god is real. Don't lie to yourself. Deities are not real.

God= not real.
Vishnu= not real.
Odin= not real.
Mars, Jupiter, venus, saturn, pluto, Gaia, mercury, uranus= NOT REAL.

All gods have the same amount of merit as your god but they still don't exist.

A good movie to watch that highlights the irrationality of humans in volatile times is "The Mist." People will believe anything that will make them sleep better at night even if it's complete and utter bullshit.

Atheist of the world: Religion and deities have their place. Don't attack religious people unless you're attacked first. Also don't try to disprove religious beliefs unless provoked. Logic and reason need not apply.

People of Faith: Stop trying to prove your mumbo jumbo. It's impossible.

Nothing against you, but i find it anoying when someone does "+1" lol xD

http://www.surfthechannel.com/info/tele ... ?aid=70428

LULULULUL.

Surely Barotix, you must know saying, "Here's another thing: Nothing made something? Well what did god make us from? NOTHING," is an affirmation of His existence.

Seriously if you pretend that you don't believe in God, you may not base your arguments on His existence. Your view is that all beliefs from the ancients are the same. You've lumped monotheists (ONLY Abrahamic religions) in with polytheists (ALL other religions).

When you say that you are not a proponent of the Big Bang theory and then go on to say, "You see I don't propose that some mystical being that lives in la-la land created us all because it is is unproven, unprovable, and unthinkable. It defies logic and reason..." you've left yourself befret of any possible explanation of existence. In other words, were did we come from?

Your explanation of "Energy" having always been there ignores Einsteins equations E=MC². Now I ask you, who is lying to himself?

You actually sound more like a Theistic Agnostic than an Atheist. Remember these definitions have been around longer than you.

Cordially,
~Grandpa

PS. I would also correct you (again) and this goes way back to our first discussion. I am not trying to prove God is real. I have proven easily that Abraham was more real than Conan the Barbarian. I do take note that your conclusion about my implication is significant.

So I phrased a few sentences incorrectly; sue me. It's still not real. I was listing the arguments theist use and poking holes in them. I don't have an answer to how it all started because at the moment I am incapable of proving my hypothesis with the tools provided before me. I work in the physical world. Mathematics is never enough for me. I am very inquisitive, objective, and aggressive about all information presented before me. I will not pass what I do not fully understand (yet) as fact.

Don't twist my words granps. I don't believe in God(s) and never will believe in God(s).

A god = a god = a god = a god and I don't care what god or whose god it is, they're all the same thing and serve the same purpose.



Don't lie to yourself grandpa. It was a rhetorical question posed to theist that I answered. It is like the arguments written by philosophers and scientist where they battle themselves in order to prove that their argument is right.



DOES THIS MAKE SENSE (the above quote), YES OR NO. If someone came up to you and told you a story like that would you think they're crazy and being very irrational? It is alright for children to have imaginary friends but I don't think it is very sensible for an adult to have one.



To answer a question with a question: Why does it matter? I will know where we "came from" when I have the tools necessary to prove to a certain degree my hypothesis. I support the big bang but I do not pose it as fact because I do not understand it well enough to yet call it a fact. . Science can have holes poked in it, Science can be changed, Science can be molded, but religion and God can't. Science doesn't have all the answers but through it's application the answers can be found. Science doesn't require a leap of faith. All Scientist agree Evolution is real but some might doubt parts of it. That's the great thing. The entire puzzle doesn't have to fit together and you don't have to force the puzzle together. You work from point A to reach point Z. Religion, the supernatural, and mysticism all screw B-Y and jump straight to Z without any real explanation. I cannot agree with something that is not backed by some form of advanced reasoning.

note: Einstein didn't believe in God.

I do read the things that you write, Barotix and yes - they do make sense (after a fashion) if I try to understand what you mean and not what you say.

The old arguments about "creation ex nihilo" are not actually mine but have been around for-freaking-ever. What the Christian bible actually says about it is found in Hebrews 11:13


Interesting isn't it? There are serious flaws in your argument nonetheless. If you state, "I personally do not believe," that's fine. When you go beyond this personal opinion and make comments about the faithful your statements are provocative in nature and I do enjoy discussion with you.

Fair enough?

~Granps

PS. Prove your statement about Einstein or retract it, sir.
[EDIT #1]:
He did not believe in a Personal God. Again, you mis-state the facts.

[EDIT #2]
[quote=Albert Einstein"]"Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of nature--a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort." [/quote]

The Path of God:

Is there really any way to prove the existence of God? It’s possible that either you believe or you don’t. Two separate paths branch out before each of us; the path of atheism on one hand and the path of God or gods on the other. One path denies accountability to any superior being other than that of nature’s collective consciousness. The other requires obedience and ultimate accountability to the government of a higher power. Atheism teaches that all things including our own existence are the result of chance. Theism (belief in god) ascribes design and order to supernatural intelligence. “Which do I choose?” is not really the most important question. Instead, the really big question is, “How do I decide,” or “How do I determine which one is the truth?” not “truth for me” but actual provable fact.
It’s rather ironic when you think about it, but there really is only one safe choice. If you choose the path of atheism and it turns out your wrong, you’re screwed! But if you choose the path of belief in God and it turns out you’re wrong, you’ve simply hedged your bet. You lose absolutely nothing by being wrong and you gain everything if you end up being right. As clearly rock solid as this logic may be, it still doesn’t answer the question, “What is the truth?”
It’s been said that the existence of a supreme being is self evident. But what does that really mean? I’m afraid I’m probably going to step on some toes here, but consider this. NASA sends a ship into outer space, to the moon, to Mars, wherever they want. Would you say that these spacecraft and their missions are the result of intelligent design and planning or merely the fortunate consequences of natural selection and chance? I realize that I’m being absurd here but I’m proving a point of self evident truth. How does it make any logical sense to attribute the existence and technology of spacecraft, computers, automobiles, and the like to intelligent design by human production, while at the same time pointing to the complex living mechanisms of this planet and asserting they are the result of natural accidental luck? Unlike modern technology, these creatures cannot be reproduced or duplicated in even the most technically scientific laboratory, I’m sorry, but logic and common sense does not tolerate two opposite conclusions to both be reckoned as truth. If intelligent design is responsible for all sophisticated and technical machinery, then there is a God. If all complex machinery organic or mechanical can be attributed to random chance then there is no need for a supreme being. The truth is self evident. The manufacturers label says, “Made by God.”

Expect an edit, sir.

@Blurred, atheism doesn't teach jack-shit, it is simply the lack of Belief in any and all deities. Evolution is natural selection and natural selection is not chance. Don't try to pass your faith as Science. Those ideas that there's a being judging you and writing down all the bad things you do so he may punish/award you are absurd. Religion and gods are the result of ancient people trying to make sense of the chaos that was all around them. It was and still is a form of control. A form of control that I do not ascribe to. Belief in god(s) is the surrender of logic and reason and I like free thought, will, and expression without the fear of oppression. With liberty comes consequences but I would rather live in a world with those consequences than in a world without liberty.

The idea of you having nothing to lose is ludicrous because it doesn't take into account other gods. It's also a sign of fear. Is fear the driving factor behind your "rational?" Now we're on philosophy. I shine here.

@Grandpa:
~The God Delusion. Great book, you should read it.

Sometimes you don't know how funny you are.

~Granps

Read my edits. Einstein wasn't like you, Blurred, or the countless religious people out there. He had no faith. He was religious about Science not Judaism.

You have traded logic and reason in for faith. My premise that god(s) aren't real? That god(s) are a figment of our imagination? That if you have an imaginary friend and call it a god it's perfectly sane but If I have an imaginary friend and don't call it god I'm insane? Which premise Grandpa? Right now the way I see it you can't prove that which requires faith; therefore, you must rely on faith and faith is irrational. Is it fear grandpa? Are you afraid of something? Could it be the possibility of no meaning? No purpose? I don't need someone or something to plan things for me. I don't need someone or something to tell me what my purpose is. I make my purpose not "X", my imaginary friend from zone "Z", who might send me to zone "Y" if I don't believe he exist.

Code: Select all

I've already seen that video. Read the comics I posted.
Here, repost:





Do you fear your god?

Your premise (the one that I spoke to) was that all belief in god(s) require the surrender of logic and reason. My logical reply refuted you absolutely yet you persist.

Barotix, admit that you were wrong, that belief and logic can co-exist. Further, admit your statements about Einstein were misleading and allow him to speak for himself. He did not believe in a Personal God. That's all.

To your statement, "faith is irrational" I would also challenge you. Define your terms, slippery one. When I reply and you say, "I didn't say that right" or when I reply and prove you wrong and you don't admit it, you are giving the wrong impression of yourself. I know you better than that.

~Granps

Faith and logic cannot coexist within any context. Faith does not need logic but humans need logic (I suspect this [being human] to be the reason you want faith and logic to coexist in harmony. There will always be tension between the two. They do not get along well, like water and oil.). He did not have faith, he was religious about Science. Faith ~ Belief without proof, evidence. "A Leap of faith". Faith requires no rational; therefore, it is irrational (or makes no sense). I like implying my thoughts with post but sometimes I must add the full thought to prevent confusion:



Are leaps of faith logical? Do they make sense in any context? Do you have faith and are you afraid of your god? Have you ever questioned your god's existence or plan? You can apply logic without faith but once they meet you must pick one or the other. Faith or Logic.

Lastly, where and how have you proved me wrong without misunderstanding the intentions of my post?

The video makes ALOT of sense

Do you fear the fact that we came from him? (God)

You should try reading the bible. Not for any religious purposes but to understand it. You seem to have no knowledge of it. Unless you posted that "joke" for fun and games because its umm... lol.

Of course it will make sense to you. Any video that strengthens your belief makes sense to you.



What is there to fear? Why should I care about a hypothetical afterlife? It is the here and now that matters. Live your life well and do no wrong (unless necessary) to your fellow man. Why do no harm (unless necessary) to your fellow man? Because it benefits you. I don't need a god to tell me what's right and what's wrong. I don't have fear in that which does not exist. Fearing something that isn't real makes no sense.



It's an extended metaphor about being good. It uses fear to get it's message across. Been there, done that, and I'm not going back. It's a very good book though.



The jokes make sense.

You have stated Faith is [equal to] Irrational [thought].
Would you agree then that according to your premise faith is not rational?

Your premise is that rational thought can not co-exist within any context with Faith. This is simply preposterous.

Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the word you use?
I am certain that within you arises a conflict when you consider the requirements of Faith in God, but to describe that conflict as irrational is an offense. You have again lumped all those who do not believe according to your rationale as irrational.

Not to say that I am an excellent example but consider me:

In your opinion, can I personally listen to reason? Do I possess that ability?
In your opinion, do I seem insane?
In your opinion, am I lucid?

Those individuals who are irrational do not possess the ability to listen to reason. They are not sane, knowing not right from wrong, they are not lucid.

In what way is your belief set (the one that believes that Einstein never declared his belief in God) more sane or lucid than mine? In what manner do you possess any greater understanding of the origins of man than I? I've never challenged the sanity, lucidity nor rationality of my opponents but give them the benefit of the doubt. Is that not the rational thing to do?

~Granps

EDIT: You've asked me to show you where you have been proven wrong. I'll post again in this edit. Your initial statement about Einstein was "Einstein did not believe in God"
He did not believe in a Personal God. Again, you mis-state the facts.

Faith and logic cannot coexist. I do not mark those that know the limits of faith and are willing to listen to reason as irrational or insane; however, those that consider faith the only platform for their points and are not willing to listen to reason or use reason are irrational. When one does not know the limits of faith they are on a path of intellectual self-destruction. Their mind is closed and nothing will break through.

I only challenged your sanity in the question of my imaginary being, "X", VS your imaginary being "God". One who has an imaginary friend that only talks to them can be called insane but should they be? It must be used in it's the proper context. It was merely a hypothetical situation used to show the hypocrisy of society and the religious right in general. You do not not represent the ideas and beliefs of the majority therefore those situations and questions need not apply to you. Don't take offense to it when I pose them during my ramblings.

Einstein did not believe in God, capital G. He can be described as a pagan at most but he did not believe in God, capital G.

You are again mis-quoting yourself. You've changed your terms, slippery one. Your first statement was "faith is irrational". This is not the same as "faith is (in my opinion) illogical."

Bait and switch doesn't work with me. I expect better of you.
Regarding the lie you repeated about Einstein, he has stated directly:
The lie was repeated by your lips.

Once we stepped into philosophy everything became a matter of opinion. Now it is a case of who's opinion is more logical. Carry on.



1] Einstein's quotes hint towards a nature spirit but not your God, capital G. When I type he did not believe in God (capital G) I speak of your God.

2] Your understanding is that a creator that was always there made everything. It has no scientific backing, cannot be proven, and has yet to be proven. It requires faith.

My understanding is natural selection. No faith. You either agree or disagree. When you disagree be ready to back it up without "leaps of faith." Do you have a better proposal?



In that I was wrong.

More accurately the old testament is a collection of fables and the new testament is an autobiography of jesus christ, lectures and creeds from the apostle, and the story of the early church...while metaphors are present the book itself is not one...

His position is not to spread fear. That purpose was made by idiotic people in history to take advantage of the time being. God is not telling you what to do, he is simply just giving you an option. If you choose to go against his "laws" then your option is gonna have a consequence. Just like a government, they have laws, laws that you need to follow. What's gonna happen if you don't follow our government's laws? There's gonna be a consequence. Right? So you don't need a government to tell you what to do either right? What's right and what's wrong?

If you steal, whats gonna happen?
If you kill another person, whats gonna happen?

Like i said the "laws" are not hard to follow it's simply common sense. You just have a misconception that god is a person in the heavens with crazy rules. Not true.

And the video... Still stands.

The goal of government is to protect the property rights of people. I do not need Government to tell me I should not steal or kill. Under Government certain natural laws are outlawed. You must now ask why those laws exist before continuing this discussion. My answer is it benefits you.



Every action (good and bad) has consequences. Because of Modern Government god(s) are no longer necessary.

Give up. Einstein did not "hint" to a "Nature god" as you have stated, in point of fact he categorically denied this as well.

I mentioned Einstein because you said that explaining creation from nothing was simple. You said that it came from energy. Einstein said that E=MC². Are you trying to avoid my point?

So now Einstein is contradicting himself? I should have left my original post before editing it. Read The God Delusion, it spells it out far better than I can. So what did Einstein believe? AS I POSTED BEFORE NEEDING TO ADJUST BECAUSE OF ACCUSATIONS:

He had no faith in any religion instituted among men at all. Well, except for his "religious-like" application and appreciation of science. READ THE BLOODY BOOK BEFORE WE GO ANY FURTHER, YES THE CAPS ARE NECESSARY. Damn text formats make it hard to convey my thoughts. Shit language is shit.

Yeah, that's the ticket. Instead of understanding that you might be wrong, fix it up so that Einstein was. I don't buy it.

How can you be wrong when talking about yourself?
My first question was rhetorical. I should have followed with: No he is not contradicting himself but you are wrong in stating that he believed in any god.



I am not avoiding your question. You misunderstood my post when you posed that question. Let's put it back in it's proper context.



Rhetorical questions followed by answers given by "main-stream" fundamentalist. They propose that God might be energy. I post their beliefs and contradict them. Would you prefer quotes around all my arguments or should I put [rhetorical][/rhetorical] or [hypothetical][/hypothetical] around my text? Once we enter philosophy the methods I use to get my message across change dramatically.

now personally im agnostic, raised catholic but it didnt take. i believe there may be some sort of higher being out there, but at the moment it doesnt matter to me. Barotix, faith and logic can coexist: something had to set off the big bang - be it god, or hell, aliens. either way there is some sort of higher power out there that set this whole mess in motion. idk, i see logic and a little faith there.

but while we're taking potshots at religions - biggest loophole EVER. Anything good happens and god is great! but if anything bad happens then "god works in mysterious ways". doesnt that just seem to cover everything, how convenient.

but my 2 cents, best religious quote ever "It doesn't matter what you have faith in, it's just that you have faith" (from dogma but probably not exact)

Okay, agreed - we can go back to your simple definition of "how it happened". You said it was simple, not me.

Before we do, a couple more quotes from Einstein:


On how he feels about atheist efforts to claim him as an ally:

You were speaking to me, right?
I was indeed speaking to you, not a rhetorical person who I can make strawman arguments against.
For the record, I am a monotheistic modalistic monarchianist. I personally believe that God is in the process of revealing His nature to mankind. I know of no other way to classify my beliefs and doubt that you have any canned rhetorical phrases or arguments for me.