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As the highest legit chinese on Venus I have soloed the entire way and see it as the only way for Chinese charas to grind, while they can pt grind they are rather poor at it and dont real bring anything to the pt. CHinese int classes can be subed for a wiz if they are needed but should never take the spot if there are euros avalibale simply because they arent as good at the grinding side of the game as euros.

PVP is a different sort of beast. I have had my discussions with Avalon in Guild chat beign one of the only chinese in the guild about who wins in pvp euro or chinese and there have been diferent out comes from those discussions.

However the main point is that it comes down to the person playing the character and the situation that the pvp is in. A well built chinese chara which has had thought put into not only its skills but its gears, should be a match for any euro class 1v1. PvP with Euros shouldnt take place on a 1v1 though Euros should do everything as a pt including pvp.

PvP in the sense of Job war is a place were euros should shine as they can sit in their ot and should beable to kill off the chinese if they know what they are doing. However a mixed party of chinese and euro should beable to also kill the full euro pt if they have a strat and know what they are doing. It comes down to who has they better understanding of the chara that they are using and who has thought out what will take place.

IN a Cape battle 1v1 it is all down to player skill in most instances. While some classes such as rouge and wiz have large advatnages they are all overcomeable and can be killed if you take a long look at what needs to be done.

This game is not the half asses effort that some take it to be, it will have been preplanned and is only this way because imo the updates for isro have come in the wrong order so it seems rather unbalanced. But in the longer picture say 90cap the races are evenly balanced and there is no eruo vs chiense but rather what euro and chinese pt is more effectuve in pvp.

And like I say in guild chat, if I can get mu computer issues fixed and can actualy play again and get farmed, euro wont be a big problem for me as I firmly belive that I can kill them in a 1v1 basis rather easily.

A blader brings nothing to the party. Sure, he can tank, but he CAN'T BUFF. For a tank to help the clerics and wizards, they must be able to BUFF. You're missing the whole freaking point!

How do I know about the wizard and Oblationing thing in regards to the cleric? I AM a cleric. At Lv80, if the wizard dies, Bless, Orbit, res and buff. Oh wow, really going to die. Sure, I could do the same to a spear, but they don't do anywhere near as much damage as a wizard.

If they wanted effective mixed parties, they would've given Chinese party buffs. Do they have any? No. Do they bring anything to the party that a Euro couldn't do? No. End result; Euros only in parties for maximum efficiency. If you really can't see this at this point, I say you need to play more in party situations.

...You know a spear can easily replace a wizard, but there really is no point going overkill on defense, which is what would happen if a you stack mana shield and warrior buffs on a spear user. They would also average +1 nuke on killing, even with buffs. Don't even say get a bard to buff for more m.dmg. You would realize how much more useful anything besides a dancing bard would be to the party. You would actually need 4 or more of the same dmg type to actually make use of the damage dances, and if you add 2 warriors, a cleric and the other bard, you just lost the diversity of a rogue and warlock, not to mention the advantages of having an extra attack, and extra EARTH BARRIER!. That's right, everyone forgets earth barrier, but experienced wizards use it quite often. You only need 3 wizards to keep constant earth barrier, and at lvl 80 that's 42% p.absorption to the whole party.


PS:
Cleric would be sticking around the tank and wizard in the first place, so the wiz will be within oblation range. It takes milliseconds to pull it off, and I am certain we all know a cleric realizes a wizard is dead maybe even before they realize it themselves. I know I do, since I am the one responsible for their survival, so if I can't heal them I know they are dead.It's not really hard to pull off a group heal (orbit will be running 9/10), don't even need to bless, just rez, then orbit again, then possibly bless and buff or just buff.
Whoever doubts the ability of the cleric to do all that in under 5 secs probably never played one. Not only will the wizard have oblation to make up for warrior buffs initially, but they already automatically have guard tambour, and the warrior is going towards them to buff, so the wizard can take off oblation and take out the threat. Shame on you for not trusting your party mates to bring you back at full force in 5 sec.

If you are going to go overkill, on defense by replacing wiz with spear, you better have a sun spear, because if I(as a cleric) could choose between having to look after 1 more person, or having to deal with gangbanging because the dmg dealer can't kill fast enough, I would rather take care of 1 more person with enemies coming 1 at a time. It is much easier and much safer...and you wouldn't need the defense from mana shield. Wizards are preferable precisely because they can kill fast, and kill a group in 3 shots, so in that sense, best defense is ownage offense. Not to mention being able to do mass dull, kb, mana drought and inviisble.

My post history suggest I am negative towards bards? Not true. It may seem that I am negative because I keep proving how useless bards would be as a subclass, or in comparison to clerics, or even having 2 of them just to do dances. I love bards. What i hate is their skill requirements. It is ludacris to use a dance and have 1 out of 8 party members sit around doing nothing but running around when you could easily increase productivity in a different manner. That is especially true in a PvP situation where a balance of defense is needed. In fact, I would rather have the 2nd bard put up a mana tambour instead of some dance that will benefit only 1 person. That way, the two bards can act more as support and less as baggage. The only reason a bard should dance is if you want to specialize in different strategies with the same party (although the best strategy for a euro party is to stay togather and protect the wizard and cleric and simply support with damage and dstraction). Give me any reason why you would have 1 bard dancing and I can show you it would be more productive if the bard was replaced or it didn't dance.

A blader tanking is out of the question compared to a 1h warrior, even axe warrior. In PvP being able to take dmg isn't everything, support of the party is what you really want. Sure, let's forget the buffs, but you can't argue with the fact that you are useless if your only protective skill is KD. Wizard can't kill the target you are tanking if you KD it, and that's the most important factor in being a tank, disturbing opponents so the high dmg dealers can kill them. In that respect, i would rather have a blader replace a rogue...if even that, since ranged KD is important to taking care of ranged opponents, because tey are more likely to kill a wizard or cleric if they can even do so.

As to why everyone likes you to be a cleric instead of a warlock, I can only see that happen if they don't already have a cleric. I wouldn't miss out on a warlock in my party any day...since I am already the designated cleric.

A spear could not even come CLOSE to replacing a wizard. At level 64, a wizard will do more dmg then a fully farmed fully pimped lvl 80. At lvl 80, a pure int wizard will have ALMOST 4000 MAX magical damage, thats without any sun weapons. Pure int spear cant come close. When a wizard nukes, he nukes 5 targets for EVEN damage. If he nukes for 40k, its not 40k its 40k x 5, since theres no dmg reduce. When a spear nukes, he nukes for 20k, then the 2nd hit is -35%, 3rd hit is -35% off that. Now tell me a spear can take the place of a wizard.




Since a euro party NEEDS at least 1 bard, a second bard isnt really that bad. You can put up both dancing of wizardry (34% dmg extra to wizards) AND hit march. (79 attack rating to WHOLE PARTY) With that party setup, you will have : 2 tanks, 1 cleric, 2 bards, 3 wizards. You can sub out 1 wizard for a warlock for added debuffs if needed. 34% x 3 = 100%, so it'll make up for the lost wizard. A rogue isnt really useful in a euro party. There, I said it. Its the most gimped class of all the euros, the ONLY use that is has is the ability to lure, which tanks can do better.



If you look above, you will have 3 wizards, so its constant earth barrier.




Thats true.

First Quote was taken out of context, and you can see right after that I said you would need an extra nuke (at least) to kill the same enemy, and i made that clear in my last post,but I guess you didn't get to read it.

3 wizards and 2 bards instead of 4 wizards and 2 bards. Think about it. Being able to target and most likely kill 4 people in 1 go as opposed to being able to kill 3 people. Pretty sure with the cleric buffs and warrior buffs, and tambour, the wizards can even go into life control, so everything is still 1 shot, or if not, 1 shot+ support atk from the tankers or bards...or the extra wizard...

Even more atk rating and more m.atk won't make up for having an extra wizard that can react at a different time, in a different place. Mistakes also happen, so extra earth barrier isn't bad to have. But the main reason for replacing the bard is the fact that it will have to run arund doing nothing. If the bard could at least attack, I wouldn't be so against a dancing bard. After all, even if it doesn't do a wizards's dmg, it will still provide support dmg, and add to distractions, or guarantee a kill on a weaker wizard not in life control. That's the biggest issue I have with the dances. They cripple the bard doing it.

As to a rogue being useless in a party except for luring..think again. 1. Range support. 2. Major distraction, and protection ability (with KB, KD, and more importantly scorn). If a Rogue scorns all the time, the wizards will be filling the enemy's asses with so many flaming rocks, they would roast from the inside before they realize what's going on. 3. Long range damage support, meaning they would be aiding more wizards than a warrior can manage, because they won't have to run around to do it.

Being a Rogue,as much as I want to disagree I will agree because it's mostly true.In a fully functional party the only ability a Rogue has is being really good at luring single party mobs and protecting valuable party members.

In a party where there is no cleric however a Rogue/Cleric can play a valuable part.Recovery division,bless & Healing Cycle etc really make a useful difference.Offcourse it depends on the party situation.As a Rogue being able to semi-tank and semi-destructive damage I take the responsibility to coordinating how the party goes and to protect the wizard/clerics from any danger which a Rogue is also the best in when the warrior is busy with other pt mobs for instance.So in general i'd say Rogues play the smallest part in a party,but their protection (for clerics/bards/wiz) is really important cause u know when the cleric dies,everybody might just follow^^

Im not sure if Chinese or Euro are better than one of the other, but I am sure that they are not interchangeable.

Yes the Euro pt needs buffs and it is allllll about them. We HAVE to have two tanks in the high level pt to keep those wizards alive and doing fast dmg. A chinese nuker cannot do that kinda dmg, even on a good day. With warrior buffs I can do recovery and a couple group heals every so often. Without them, I am rezzing wizards every minute. A blader would be useless.

i like both races^^

Realist you really are missing the whole point.....You've either never played as a INT in a euro party or all your warriors suck ass.....

If you use a blader instead of a tank why make a euro party then. A warrior keeps two weak targets alive. The fact that a blader can not buff anyone is the key. So instead of two of your INTs not dieing you have none. Meaning the cleric healing that blader is going to die and fast, the wizard will die almost as fast since he's basically solo now. Cleric buffs won't keep his ass alive that's for sure.

So now here's your party. Wizard that dies any time he's targeted, a cleric who's running for their life, and a blader running around knocking down people doing zero damage. No thank you I would rather have a warrior who can instantly stun or kb anyone fast 80% of the time and who knows how buffs work so I, the wizard, do not get destroyed by getting one shot. Sure absolute will kill me but I havn't seen players use that much lately.

As a wizard I will say buff "me" every time they wear off, why? Cause I only have one buff for others and it's my job to do the killing. If I was a tank, playing as a wizard I know that they need my buffs, so I will keep buffs up and keep players off the weak targets instead of running around trying to do damage as a class who's not suppose to do damage in a party.

This topic has pretty much been argued to death...

What chinese are good at -> soloing
What euros are good at -> pt varied work

Sure, a 2h warrior sub cleric can do quite a bit on his own, but if his buffs are down he's typically screwed. You won't see [smart] euros thieving on their own, they need some kind of support. Chinese on the other hand could easily rob a 4 star and handle the spawns on their own. Try doing that as a euro on your lonesome.

Euros will ALWAYS kick chinese ass when it comes to warring. It's not going to change; it's what the euro race is all about.

Well, if you are suggesting the 4* person is going at it alone, then anyone that can kill that person can do it pretty much. Not sure if noise works on NPC thieves, but I know taking out 1 enemy is easy as pie when the enemy is getting ganked by 8 NPC thieves, while they use their skills, you just rush in, take them out, summon, pikcup, and that's that. Euro can't fight off 4*? Seriously? I can tank 5* by myself without killing any of them, especially when they use normal atks...no imbue...etc etc. It's really not hard to do. Rogue or wiz can probably thief a 2 hunter, 1 trader party pretty easily too. As long as there are npc thieves spawning it's not hard to pick off the trader/hunters 1 by 1 before they realize they've lost 1-2 people.

Well lets take a 2hd warrior vs a bower. If they both are fully farmed well i would set my money on the bower.. Bowers are range attackers. If the 2hd warrior comes to you, you start knock him back.. If he use his skins, ill keep running and kd until they are of.. i turn my mana shield off and i win the battle simple..

Then they go like.. Noob runner stay and fight - im like fu ima range attack so kiss my ass mofu

The reasoning is simple. Warrior buffs. 1 tank will buff the cleric + 1 dmg dealer, other tank will buff other 2 damage dealers. They can only buff 4 people. Any more, and 1 will be left buffless, a 1 shot who cant do much. I'd rather have a bard that can NOISE, and wont take any aggro, who will still produce the SAME amount of damage (every nuker increases 34% dmg, total of 402% damage output instead of 400% with 4 dmg dealers)




Instead of the useless rogue, you can get a bard, making the wizards stronger by 34%.... In a good party, there will be no need to protect the wizards, thats the secondary tanks job. Primary tank lures, secondary keeps aggro off the ints.

Obviously range would give you an advantage...especially against the only calss that doesn't have range attacks, but I think you are forgetting sprint assault. They can catch up with it, and if it stuns you might not be able to run for quite a while, since they will follow up with madening, and try to KD over and over.

I actually don't know where you were going with this, but if you want to make a point you should at least compare similar classes....like bower vs xbow rogue. I don't think you can say the same thing there, since they would have the range advantage.

@Jason: I wasn't even talking about PvE. You can control too many factors in PvE situations. Who cares if a bard sits around in PvE, when it's really more about DPS once you get the protection down. You won't even need 2 tanks when the wizards get 3rd tier robes so don't say something like protection is more important in a grinding party, because it really depends on what you are killing, and if we are talking 75+ wizards vs generals, it's easy as pie to keep them alive.

You gotta stop commenting on my quotes now, since you are thinking PvE, and I am thinking PvP, since PvE is a lot different in terms of survival. (It's too easy in comparison.)

Well, 1/2 the game is based off pve.... In a PvP party, a wizard unbuffed is just a dead wizard, he will be laying on the ground for 90% of the time. Most people can kill an unbuffed wizard with just a sprint assault, or flying dragon. And you ALWAYS need 2 tanks in a general party, a REAL euro general party, you dont kill mobs 1 by 1. You lure about 30 of them together, and aoe the shit outta em. I doubt a wizard can tank 30 pt mobs, even with sosun robes...


Its the same concept in pvp and pve, any unbuffed int = dead no matter how you look at it.

See, I can always spot a non partying Euro. For every skill that someone has, someone else has a counter, that is why when someone says a buff is "useless" you know they just dont know wtf they are doing.

Yes, clerics have a lot of aggro. Everything I cast tends to pull some mob on me. But the warriors have protect and that counters it. And anytime a warrior says something about dmg, baby Jesus cries. I swear, its like the dumbest words ever to escape a warriors mouth. Its a bannable offense in an Avalon pt.

@torinchibi
Well silkroad is a multiclass game .. so you cant setupd fight like these with bow vs bow.. and yea they got sprint attack but i got ghost walk phantom? and i already tried it..

Any warrior who decides he is good at 1vs1 while he is chasing a bow char should delete their char....

I was doing general parties long before venus opened, I am sure I know what I am talking about. You can easily replace 2nd tank with a rogue (rogues can actually do a better job in luring and they won't have to run around, the tank can just round up whatever is coming towards the rogue with lion roar(I think that's what 2nd book taunt was called).

Depending on the party, you can do without 2 tanks...maybe up to 3 wizards and a cleric. Pain quota 2 wizards, phy fence on cleric and the other wiz, it works out well enough for 72+. As long as the wizards don't get 1-2 shot deaths are minimal. 1 tank can also round up enough mobs..if the tank is good enough to run up to a group, lion roar, then sprint assault back to another group or leftover party mob, and repeat.

yea

I was doing euro parties before it came out in iSRO, and i'll agree, a rogue luring at the generals is JUST as effective as a tank. Too bad rogues dont get physical fence, pain quota, and protect. I'd rather have a tank who can lure AND protect 2 ints then a useless rogue who can just lure.




Its not about the phy fence and quota, its about the Protect skill. Wizards and clerics create a huge deal of aggro, and they NEED Protect unless you want mobs all over the place. Remember, a GOOD euro party is trying to use the wizards skills of AoE effectively, hitting 5 targets instead of 1. With aggro all over the place, you'll be lucky to hit even 2 targets. Having even ONE wizard unbuffed will draw more aggro then any tank could. They could not have phy/quota for all I care.

It isnt that. You missed the point. The second tank is for protecting the wizards. Our standard pt consists of 2 tanks, 1 cleric, 1 bard and 4 wizards. 1 tank covers two wizards. We dont need that second tank for pulling. Then we can pull HUGE numbers of mobs, no one dies, everyone's job is easy. Take out that one tank and ppl start dying; grinding is twice as hard.

against a bow in 1on1, i (2h) just use skins, use bless, switch to cleric sub (rod+shield), put orbit and group heals in, keep on kding, switch to 1h, use sprint assault, as long as skins got cooldown, use skins, put 2h out, give it another try, after that bless and so on.... as long as i do it right, the bower cant kill me ... it might be a long pvp, but dare devil crit-> bow dead

so at the worst, im not able to kill the bow and the bow cant kill me :S
same with bladers... ^^

euro pts only > mixed pts
theres no chinese build whose able to replace a euro who knows to play :S think of a pt with everyone using cleric sub... its possible to be permanently double blessed, everyones able to heal, everyone can ress and so on...

oh and btw, you cant call a blader a tank...i think theres no one whos really afriad of a blader in group pvp with bless... you kill the low deff low hp chinese and at the end you gang the blader... a warriors able to have 28k hp, with skins, 80% kb, dull, fences its the born tank --

give me one example for a chinese that replaces a euro in group pvp...

Doesn't matter who it is, if they are chasing a bower around, and the bower does nothing but run, there would be no point. Haven't seen too many bowers use their range as an advantage, but if they do, there is little you can do except out-range them, or somehow close in fast and finish them off in 2-3 attacks before they can escape.

And for the record, if the warrior stuns, the crits on maddening, then KDs, the next atk will finish the bower, so chasing isn't completely useless, just not chasing by actually running around like a headless chicken.

@Jason rogues can protect the ints, not as effectively as a tank would with the buffs taunts, but I proved my point, you can make do with a rogue and tank if you don't have 2 tanks. So rogues, are not useless. They are just less useful.

With protects on the healer and the highest level wizard, the other 2 wizards don't get too much aggro, because it switches really fast. If they are close enough to mobs, they might get aggroed, but most of the time, as soon as the warrior taunts, or the high lvl wizard hits them, they would switch targets to the warrior again. I know protect is godly, but I've had to deal with not having 2 warriors and having 4 wizards and a cleric, and we manage...it's hella ugly but we manage.

GTG for a test, let's continue this in 3 hours.

[quote="torinchibiWith protects on the healer and the highest level wizard, the other 2 wizards don't get too much aggro, because it switches really fast. If they are close enough to mobs, they might get aggroed, but most of the time, as soon as the warrior taunts, or the high lvl wizard hits them, they would switch targets to the warrior again. I know protect is godly, but I've had to deal with not having 2 warriors and having 4 wizards and a cleric, and we manage...it's hella ugly but we manage.[/quote]

Dont get me wrong, its possible to manage with 1 tank, but you get about 2x less exp, since your lures are smaller and death rate is higher... You can manage with lots of builds, the best ones are the ones where you dont just manage, you excel.

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