From a Business Perspective

Zing · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 568 **Location:**

GRINDING AND CASH

Gold Bots are the largest group on Silkroad Online.

It should be well-known that these guys do not buy silk at all. Their goal is to make money, not to increase the overall results of their characters. By making money, they grind enormous amounts of bots to farm gold dropped from monsters. Gold bots produce no cash income for JOYMAX at all.

Player bots are the second most biggest group on Silkroad Online.

It is true bots do in fact buy silk, but how much is the amount of silk is bought? It isn't a lot, from a perspective that a bot can go out and grind for long periods of time. So, what's the use in buying silk to enhance an already fast grinding? Sure enough, there's people who actually do buy silk to reach extreme leveling with their bot program. But, again, what's the amount of people who would actually do that? I would consider it to be a low number, because if you're already leveling up at a fast rate, there's no need to spend money. Keep that money to yourself so you can use it on other things. Seeing how grinding isn't all the special to a botter, as the player bots.

Legitimate players are the smallest group on Silkroad Online.

Overall, the legitimate player does in fact produce more cash per player than player bots. As simple as it is, time equals money. Following the simple formula, legitimate players will on average play the game much longer in the long run. Throughout the time taken in playing Silkroad Online, it gives the player time to think about paying silk for enhancing the experience. Because, it should be safe enough to assume that if you play a certain game for a long time, then you sure-as-hell like the game a lot. The legitimate player obviously produces more revenue on average when compared to player bots.

When you actually have more people play legitimately, your inventory opens up larger (meaning: more cash), since there'd be a bgger probability that players that do not bot will look into most of Silkroad Online's merchandise. Because, a player bot, most of the time, would disregard grinding enhancer merchandise.

CASH AND RECRUITMENT

Silkroad Online is mostly a grind game. I would say roughly 75% to 80% of JOYMAX's income comes from the grinding itself. Whatever left over would be fancying up your characters to your desire, costumes, pets, alchemy, etc.

By dropping the population level, you'll actually gain more people. Usually, in a expected scenario would be that: a new player would install Silkroad Online and not be able to play the game since it is crowded. What's the use in trying to play a game that is difficult to log-in?

The more legitimate players you have, the bigger chances of selling a larger variety of items. And, best of all, the legitimate players plays longer, therefore, a longer lasting cash flow to JOYMAX.

RISK

Player bots will chargeback once they are banned!

The possibility of this outcome is can be very true. It is a risk JOYMAX have to take to gain more revenue in the long run.

(Personal note: I do hope you guys keep it to topic and not derail it to personal issues. As my last thread that had to do with botters are people to, went directly to the junk yard because of the personal issues. Take Care.)

crazy_foo · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 1387 **Location:**

I think what you've said is true, I agree with it

Charge back from player bots is probably a big risk too.

Gusy · **Joined:** Jun 2007 **Posts:** 561 **Location:**

You actually spent time to write an essay on JM? Must've worked hard at school.

And yes.. I agree with ya, but not all bots will have the ability to chargeback will they? If you were talking about PayPal then wasn't it like 90 days you can chargeback after that you can't?

HawaiianMix · **Joined:** Jan 2008 **Posts:** 786 **Location:**

Zing wrote:

GRINDING AND CASH
[ saving space ]

I COMPLETELY AGREE 100%. Well written yet I just wish the majority would understand this concept. Because in reality, I have said almost exactly what you stated to many but people are sheep and will follow the common view of the majority.

marjin_boo · **Joined:** Jan 2008 **Posts:** 400 **Location:** Australia

A lot of botters believe that if they buy silk, they won't be banned. This rumor has been circling and every new botter are adviced by the old botters to buy silk in order to avoid the ban. So the wagon is circling. Bot doesn't need pet, they auto pick but majority of botters do have pet. They don't need gold ticket, majority do have, avatar etc. From my experience playing Silkroad since beta, if Joymax ban all bot, the game will shut down. Botting in Silkroad is a don't ask don't tell policy.

Zing · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 568 **Location:**

marjin_boo wrote:

A lot of botters believe that if they buy silk, they won't be banned. This rumor has been circling and every new botter are adviced by the old botters to buy silk in order to avoid the ban. So the wagon is circling. Bot doesn't need pet, they auto pick but majority of botters do have pet. They don't need gold ticket, majority do have, avatar etc. From my experience playing Silkroad since beta, if Joymax ban all bot, the game will shut down. Botting in Silkroad is a don't ask don't tell policy.

People can become paranoid at times. But, what is the amount of money is spent to stay "safe" from the bans? I was once talking to a botter and he brought up the idea of JOYMAX will not ban if you buy silk. So, he told me that he buys a pick-up pet only every month.

So, again, the question is.. How much exactly do these people spend to stay "safe" and how many people actually do it? And -- If you were to compare it to a large base of legitimate players, what's the differences? Does it really out produce the large base legitimate players? I believe that's highly doubtful.

ThisIsAvalon · **Joined:** Nov 2007 **Posts:** 1163 **Location:**

Exactly.

Why would a botter pay joymax for astral, when they can buy gold for so cheap, and just spend it on weapon elixers. They could just skip astral, and go +0/+7 cheaper then buying astral. As for a gt, maybe on their primary char. On all their goldbots, they wouldn't buy shit. SP ticket? Powerfarm at ongs. Avatar? On their primary, maybe. Skill potions? Hah, why bother?

The game wont shutdown, the game never shutdown. Back when item mall first came out, everyone said that silkroad was doomed. They were wrong.

When the hacking event happened, and sosun+9 items were spawned, everyone said silkroad was doomed. They were wrong.

When CCFing was going on, everyone said silkroad was doomed. They were wrong.

When the first major bot ban occured, everyone said silkoad was doomed. They were wrong.

When the joymax.com exploit happened, everyone said silkroad was doomed. They were wrong.

The game takes so little energy to run, that no matter what you do, you'll always be in a profit zone. Banning bots just increases that profit. I'd say about 10% of the bots know what a "chargeback" is. 3% can actually do one.

lilazianboyz bought over $5,000 in silk/gold/bot cards. His ancestors will be able to play his account in 2107.

NO_SILK_4_ME · **Joined:** Jan 2008 **Posts:** 1016 **Location:**

ThisIsAvalon wrote:

lilazianboyz bought over $5,000 in silk/gold/bot cards. His ancestors will be able to play his account in 2107.

LOL!

Necro-Mage · **Joined:** Apr 2007 **Posts:** 458 **Location:**

Good read.

Kudos for you!

non ego man · **Posted:** Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:30 am

I'd kill to see actual data from JM and end the speculation. Until then, I can only assume they're rational businessmen. Some of their actions would appear to contradict that, but without the data, who knows? Your theory seems correct.

Zing · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 568 **Location:**

Another perspective.
Mouth from another person from Silkroad Online official forum:

by (Odin)Kendrah on Mar 04, 2008 04:16 am wrote:

Okay, so everybody is all spooked out about this “Massive Banning of Bots,” a lot of you kids out there are concerned either you are a botter getting all nervous to be perma-banned and you keep on justifying that “I bot to help other people BS” or a legit player saying that “O thank you Jesus / Buddha / Allah that finally there is an action!” Most of us is swimming on the issue about this shocking message from JOYMAX. As a long time MMORPG player ever since Ultima Online, I believe I have a bit of knowledge for you:

FACTS ABOUT BOT PROGRAMS:
-First of all Botting isn’t new. We used to call it Hacks. And even though some of you botting kids keep on saying that you are botting with good intentions, you’re still using a 3rd party software, thus violating EULA. No matter how much you fantasized making JOYMAX rich; you still are hacking. And no matter how innocent this hacking is its still open to other things like, obviously theft. So why not working to end the root of this?

Another thing, hacks can be modified. Sure JOYMAX can make a great bot detection or blocking program, but sooner or later somewhere in the world a hacker can make a program that can bypass this so it’s a matter of updating this bot detection and blocking system religiously. But ironically it can never eliminate hack programs 100%. It’s like a virus, whenever a new vaccine comes out, the virus will mutate to be immune to that said vaccine.

REGARDING JOYMAX’s DECISION OF ELIMINATING BOTTERS
-I truly believe JOYMAX is very serious about eliminating botters, why? Because business-wise, this will earn them MORE MONEY in the long-term basis. Botting Kids, I laugh about your defense saying:

“You cannot eliminate botters because they buy premiums. If you eliminate them you’ll gonna be bankrupt”

On the contrary my young botter friend, making a solid security against botters will make this game sellable to distributors across the globe. No one will ever buy a franchise game with holes in it. As far as Korean MMORPG business is concerned, they will sell the rights to other countries to distribute IF AND ONLY IF the game is secure and stable enough to sell. I won’t be surprised if SRO will become P2P soon.

REGARDING YOU BOTTERS
-Yes I share you pain. I also have a life outside MMORPGs and I don’t have time to play 24/7 but that’s the point right? Games like this aren’t a race. Work hard and play harder. I don’t know the intentions of those Goldbotter parasites are, but playing legit to me is much better because you can cherish every triumph you made when you level up and finally completing you dream SOX armours and weapons. And playing legit isn’t as tedious as you think. Generally speaking, most cheaters are just plain envious to those high-leveled legits so they want to get better with them without working hard. Hmmmm….Envy and Lazy I think that sums it up.

bluetoN · **Joined:** Feb 2008 **Posts:** 88 **Location:**

man, i disagree and agree at the same time, yes i ahve botted (flame i dont care) this come from exp... in bot unions almost everyone yes everyone buys premium and pets and astral..ok i seen some legits with premium and pets but mostly its botters... not gold botters just player botters so i would think they would lose huge amount of $$ if they did but thats just me.

Also why would a botter buy premium to lvl even faster?? Simple their LAZY!! They want to get too lvl 80 fast as possible and basically own the server.

Zing · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 568 **Location:**

bluetoN wrote:

man, i disagree and agree at the same time, yes i ahve botted (flame i dont care) this come from exp... in bot unions almost everyone yes everyone buys premium and pets and astral..ok i seen some legits with premium and pets but mostly its botters... not gold botters just player botters so i would think they would lose huge amount of $$ if they did but thats just me.

Also why would a botter buy premium to lvl even faster?? Simple their LAZY!! They want to get too lvl 80 fast as possible and basically own the server.

And assuming the bot player becomes a legitimate player with the constant buying of premium, who spends more?

Bot program allows you to grind much longer than the legitimate player. So, back to the simple formula, time = money. Legitimate player spends more time getting to level 80, therefore spends more cash (premium), because they are leveling up at a slower speed. While, a bot on the other hand, would spend less due to the fast leveling.

For example, bot buys premium for four months, (I do not know the the price tag for premium) so 4x($)20=($)80.

Legitimate player buys premium for eight months, so 8x($)20=160.

It all adds up, and this is just buying the premium alone.

bluetoN · **Joined:** Feb 2008 **Posts:** 88 **Location:**

Zing wrote:

bluetoN wrote:

man, i disagree and agree at the same time, yes i ahve botted (flame i dont care) this come from exp... in bot unions almost everyone yes everyone buys premium and pets and astral..ok i seen some legits with premium and pets but mostly its botters... not gold botters just player botters so i would think they would lose huge amount of $$ if they did but thats just me.

Also why would a botter buy premium to lvl even faster?? Simple their LAZY!! They want to get too lvl 80 fast as possible and basically own the server.

And assuming the bot player becomes a legitimate player with the constant buying of premium, who spends more?

Bot program allows you to grind much longer than the legitimate player. So, back to the simple formula, time = money. Legitimate player spends more time getting to level 80, therefore spends more cash (premium), because they are leveling up at a slower speed. While, a bot on the other hand, would spend less due to the fast leveling.

For example, bot buys premium for four months, (I do not know the the price tag for premium) so 4x($)20=($)80.

Legitimate player buys premium for eight months, so 8x($)20=160.

It all adds up, and this is just buying the premium alone.

true, but u forgot to add, the amount of legit players equuivalent to the player botters..

so in fact player-botters = more income.

Zing · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 568 **Location:**

bluetoN wrote:

true, but u forgot to add, the amount of legit players equuivalent to the player botters..

so in fact player-botters = more income.

I haven't forgotten it. If you were to read my before posts, you'd read that if a large legitimate base of players were to form, JOYMAX would gain more revenue compared to the player bots. Even at the same amount of players, legit players would give more cash to JOYMAX. It's a risk to drop player bots, but the goal is good as gold.

buster5995 · **Joined:** Jun 2007 **Posts:** 444 **Location:**

Are you all retarded?
If all the bots started charging back there silk, because joymax is losing money they would go after it and give statments saying that the user agreed not to this that and that, they ended up doing that, showing the CC companys that the player signed up for it...they fu#ed up and cant get there money back.

bluetoN · **Joined:** Feb 2008 **Posts:** 88 **Location:**

Are you retarded???

Its virtual Items?? Paypal always always sides with the Buyer not the merchant over virtual items, hence their is no proof he recieved the items no Delivery code number, etc. You Failed

and made yourself look real stupid.

buster5995 · **Joined:** Jun 2007 **Posts:** 444 **Location:**

lol dude, if JM was losing hundreds of thousands from chargebacks JM would do something and paypal would investigate noob. people can be so ignorant.

bluetoN · **Joined:** Feb 2008 **Posts:** 88 **Location:**

no they wouldnt, Paypal transfers over hundreds and hundreds of millions dollars a day.

What would they do Keep thousands of paypal accnt on lock down? Bad for business wouldnt you say?

How about the people who bought with their CC's?? The CC companys are actually gonna investigate that sh1t their multi-milion dollar coporation thats chump change to them..

Also like i said ITS VIRTUAL ITEMS you STUPID TARD... THEY HAVE NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE UNLESS THEY GONNA TAKE THEM TO COURT... GOD GET IT THRU UR SKULL tard

Edit: Your thinking to yourself how would i know??

I use to sell Low Digit Steam Accounts on Ebay, ( i use to have around 80 4-6 digits dont ask how) I basically got owned in Paypal for gettin charged back from around 7-8 ppl... Which they all succeeded as paypal needs only the trackin number if not supplied u lose.

buster5995 · **Joined:** Jun 2007 **Posts:** 444 **Location:**

DUDE your wrong just give up already.

belive it or not JOYMAX is a COMPANY after MONEY.
there not just going to let HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars worth of silk be charged back.

GOD grow the hell up already you nieve child.

MrFudge · **Joined:** Jan 2007 **Posts:** 5731 **Location:** None

waitttttttt whattttt

bots buy the most silk. joymax's income comes from the 95% of player bots that buy silk on a day to day basis.

You can't think that because you have 15-17 year olds all over these forums that there isnt a 21+ HUGEeeeee crowd, i mean i can't even talk straight its just ridiculous how much money these people spend.

astral? no problem, F*ck they even SELL astral and immortal, silk, everything to friends who can't buy silk on their own. It happens everyday.

I know a couple people in game that are well into their 30's, they probably buy 500 silk every other week, its no biggie because thats like a working day and that's it.

half of the people in these forums have NEVER bought silk, and they probably never will. And you know why? because they're legit and it wouldn't be worth it. That's completely correct, but u know whatttt.....it is worth it because I doubt any legit is gonna have an easy time grinding in a game such as this one without silk. I coudln't even imagine lvling up past lvl 30 without a gold ticket with an int character.

So if you think "bots dont need silk, they're already lvling up fast and they'll just buy gold for elixers and whatnot" thats complete bullshit. Bots run this game. End of story. Chargeback is completely nonsense in its own way, the 3% of people that know what a chargeback is and how to go about to do one successfully...minimal. Again its the 20+ crowd that would do that, and chances are they're so hooked on this game they'll just rebuy silk with the charged back money they get, they'll powerlevel a new build, or a complete repicla of their old one and buy a couple premiums so they don't have to fight the logging in problem. No loss for Joymax.

bluetoN · **Joined:** Feb 2008 **Posts:** 88 **Location:**

MrFudge wrote:

waitttttttt whattttt

bots buy the most silk. joymax's income comes from the 95% of player bots that buy silk on a day to day basis.

You can't think that because you have 15-17 year olds all over these forums that there isnt a 21+ HUGEeeeee crowd, i mean i can't even talk straight its just ridiculous how much money these people spend.

astral? no problem, F*ck they even SELL astral and immortal, silk, everything to friends who can't buy silk on their own. It happens everyday.

I know a couple people in game that are well into their 30's, they probably buy 500 silk every other week, its no biggie because thats like a working day and that's it.

half of the people in these forums have NEVER bought silk, and they probably never will. And you know why? because they're legit and it wouldn't be worth it. That's completely correct, but u know whatttt.....it is worth it because I doubt any legit is gonna have an easy time grinding in a game such as this one without silk. I coudln't even imagine lvling up past lvl 30 without a gold ticket with an int character.

So if you think "bots dont need silk, they're already lvling up fast and they'll just buy gold for elixers and whatnot" thats complete bullshit. Bots run this game. End of story. Chargeback is completely nonsense in its own way, the 3% of people that know what a chargeback is and how to go about to do one successfully...minimal. Again its the 20+ crowd that would do that, and chances are they're so hooked on this game they'll just rebuy silk with the charged back money they get, they'll powerlevel a new build, or a complete repicla of their old one and buy a couple premiums so they don't have to fight the logging in problem. No loss for Joymax.

Your right not eveyroen noes what a chargeback is, but i think you kinda exgrated when u said 3%... and 95% of players in sro r botters... lol.. anyways well ya im just tiered to debate now ...

Pred · **Posted:** Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:12 am

Wow what a waste of time. Nothing that you've stated is new.

If this bothers you from a consumer point of view, just quit the game and stop making crap topics like this.

Manowar · **Posted:** Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:16 am

Zing wrote:

By dropping the population level, you'll actually gain more people. Usually, in a expected scenario would be that: a new player would install Silkroad Online and not be able to play the game since it is crowded. What's the use in trying to play a game that is difficult to log-in?

I'd like to expand on this point because I believe this is probably one of the most important points in the whole "What if Joymax bans all bots?" debates. I agree with what Zing said here because I know that out of all my real life friends who tried out Silkroad Online, most of them stopped playing immediately or after a short amount of time. Each time the reason was mostly the same, as in it was most likely because of server traffic or the fact the grind spots were crowded.

I'm no business major but IMO a business's survival is usually dependent on their ability to get new customers. This is the reason why you see some companies, like Blizzard, offer free 30 day trials of World of Warcraft or for companies like Nintendo to market the Wii console to a customer base that either doesn't play games at all or are considered to be "casual gamers". For a game that makes it very difficult for a new player to get into a game (remember every player that plays this game is a potential customer) will have trouble attracting new customers.

In my opinion if Joymax did end up banning every bot (which I'm in doubt will happen anytime soon), there will certainly be a short term loss of revenue (the size of the loss is debatable) but in the long term they will recover from it due to a better ability to attract new customers to the game.

/Pi · **Joined:** May 2007 **Posts:** 4592 **Location:**

Pred wrote:

Wow what a waste of time. Nothing that you've stated is new.

If this bothers you from a consumer point of view, just quit the game and stop making crap topics like this.

It's nothing new for you, but not for others.

ping_lo · **Joined:** Oct 2006 **Posts:** 911 **Location:**

Zing wrote:

Another perspective.
Mouth from another person from Silkroad Online official forum:

by (Odin)Kendrah on Mar 04, 2008 04:16 am wrote:

..........
REGARDING JOYMAX’s DECISION OF ELIMINATING BOTTERS
-I truly believe JOYMAX is very serious about eliminating botters, why? Because business-wise, this will earn them MORE MONEY in the long-term basis. Botting Kids, I laugh about your defense saying:

There are other parts of what you quoted I could quibble over but I will just point to this one. The original author tries to come off as if he knows what he is talking about. When if he really knew he would realize that joymax promises this same thing all the time and has failed to deliver the whole 3+ years the game has been open to the public. Oh sure they have made what to observers on the outside would seem honest steps to address the issue. But those of us who played and were in the know; know that all this is for show. There is no conviction behind it. Joymax will do this and all the addicts will laude these actions with high accolades for a few months. Then when it becomes apparent that joymax has no intention of keeping up the cycle starts again. I mean just curious but how stupid would we have to be to take this hook line and sinker? So you would have us believe that for the last year+ you have been working on this automated bot ban system that will be bypassed in a week. But you have not had time to ban 1-2 bots of some sort on each trip to the toilet in that time? I truly used to believe that Joymax would fix it all. But the truth is there if you are willing to see it. In the last year they have banned next to no bots. But nearly every inspection has been to add or fix payment systems. The focus was never on banning bots or providing customer service. It is all about money plain and simple. It is all about the premium tickets. A solution nobody wanted to a problem that should not have existed this long.

Zing · **Joined:** Dec 2006 **Posts:** 568 **Location:**

MrFudge wrote:

...

MrFudge, have you read my post correctly? Not to sound rash, but it seriously sounds like you did not understand anything I wrote.

The whole point of the thread is to point out that the average legitimate player will in fact pay more and in a longer time than the average botter.

The ideal income is to have most, if not all, players play legitimate. Due to the time it takes to level up through regular grinding. TIME = MONEY.

You don't even need to ban player bots, you can scare them beyond oblivion to get them to change their dirty acts. Even if some still bot, you can ban them and what exactly is charged back? A few hundreds? There are many ways in getting the community to go legitimate.

This theory is not 100% full proof, but it is the ideal income. By simply just banning gold bots continuously, you'll get more income right out of that, due to more space. But if you want more income, you ban or convert player bots into legitimate players. So, new players would not turn to botting and stick to buying silk.

As you said, you wouldn't want to level up beyond thirty without a silk related item. And that's the point. You give JOYMAX currency just because of that exact reason.

Astra · **Joined:** Dec 2007 **Posts:** 535 **Location:**

bluetoN wrote:

Are you retarded???

Its virtual Items?? Paypal always always sides with the Buyer not the merchant over virtual items, hence their is no proof he recieved the items no Delivery code number, etc.

This statement is true. Not only for game related shopping, but also for software and other related non hardware stuff. They are on the side of the buyer. Thats paypal's policy, cause if they get inside in this triangle... they gonna go broke. They are just the mediator b/w the buyer and merchant.
That's why paypal sucks.
Try searching google for "paypal chargeback", and you will see that most of the chargebacks are made for virtual items.

Leon · **Joined:** Jan 2008 **Posts:** 273 **Location:** OTL

MrFudge wrote:

waitttttttt whattttt

bots buy the most silk. joymax's income comes from the 95% of player bots that buy silk on a day to day basis.

You can't think that because you have 15-17 year olds all over these forums that there isnt a 21+ HUGEeeeee crowd, i mean i can't even talk straight its just ridiculous how much money these people spend.

astral? no problem, F*ck they even SELL astral and immortal, silk, everything to friends who can't buy silk on their own. It happens everyday.

I know a couple people in game that are well into their 30's, they probably buy 500 silk every other week, its no biggie because thats like a working day and that's it.

half of the people in these forums have NEVER bought silk, and they probably never will. And you know why? because they're legit and it wouldn't be worth it. That's completely correct, but u know whatttt.....it is worth it because I doubt any legit is gonna have an easy time grinding in a game such as this one without silk. I coudln't even imagine lvling up past lvl 30 without a gold ticket with an int character.

So if you think "bots dont need silk, they're already lvling up fast and they'll just buy gold for elixers and whatnot" thats complete bullshit. Bots run this game. End of story.

Too sad, but too true :banghead:

omgbots · **Joined:** Feb 2008 **Posts:** 21 **Location:**

you play on alex head up to takla and tell me how many player bots there arent without premium and pet anbd avatar better yet just go to dw south and look.

Silkroad Online Forums

From a Business Perspective

Who is online