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is a rogue completely useless without its xbow xtreme and DD, are these skills indispensable in daily grinding???
or are these skills only for the do or die situations, lik PVP??, and a good rogue with some skill, can actually do as well without DD and Xbow xtreme

nvm... dont post the same question twice

i am sorry, but none seems to notice on the characters and skills department, so i posted it here
once again, sorry for the 'dual' post

No its not. I never use xbow extreme in PvP, I dont like 1 shot kill fight. And xbow is great for PvP if you know how to play it right. It have knock down and knock back, what else can you ask.

And these 2 things will save your live 100+ times

I often see xbowers do that knockdown skill, and when the opponent is knockdowned they enable crossbow extreme and then use long shot or something. It seems to work pretty well.

I kd, switch to dagger buff then use mortal wound or prick.

Nothing in this game saves your life for shure, its all about skill and a bit luck. If you knock back him in right time and cancel his atack, or knock down him when your HP is pretty low it saves you.

The rogue damage buffs (CE and DD) are useful in PVE. When you can take the damage, turn them on. When you cant, keep them off. It makes the rogue a very versatile character : a tank without them, a damage dealer with them.
On some long-to-kill mobs like giants I even turn them on a little bit until my health goes low then turn them off to let my health recover, then back on etc.
It's truer with daggers because the loss of overall-defense with DD on is lower than with CE on.

Meh, I don't find the rogue class a tank class, even without XE/DD =/

Rogue can tank in parties up to lvl 40. I did it. Now I'm barding.
Tanking starts sucking in the higher 30's.
Anyway I didnt say the rogue is a tank class or a damage dealer class.
It should be a damage dealer one but joymax screwed it.
As it is now... you wont party over 40 as rogue and a bard sub-class kinda sucks. INT bard is better because mana cycle is affected by int.

What I said is rogue is versatile, being "sort of a tank" without dmg buff and "sort of a dd" with them on.

why wouldnt u have xe on in the 1st place?
u dont have pots to cast it for example?!
its a buff! always have it on if u feel like it, turn it off if u dont.. just makes u more versatile, but dosent make rogues overrated just because "they are weak with it off" !

rogues are not "sort of" a dd..!
rogues with high critical weapons 17+ for xbows or 22+ for daggers do more than wizard damage on average.. its like the wiz keeps hitting for 10k for example while the rogue keeps hitting for 7k and every 2-3 hits they crit for double that damage

I stand in my firewall and no rogue can knock me down or back

Only thing he can do is stand far away out of my range and do that quickshot thing which doesnt do any real dmg

You really think firewall can save you from rogue atack

The attacks will work ofcourse, but they wont knock me down or back, giving me the chance to kill them

rogues are good both with and with out the dd and XBOWXTREME, as a thief after you get loot and get away your best bet is to take off xtreme so you can have a bit of tanking power thru your spawns but you'll want to have extreme on for killing your trade/ hunter quickly, some times you can even kill some one way higher lvl but you still got be able to tank thru your own spawns

I have been wondering for a while, which is better? Rogue daggers or Dual Axes warrior? I mean the warrior has way more def, but the daggers can give dull and have a lot higher crit, and even more extreme damage possibilities with the DD move ...

vs each other the dual axes can hold of a rogue pretty well, unless the rogue is on lvl with the warrior, rogues can usually kill people at least 10 lvls higher except warriors and bladers are a pain in the ass to do that almost requires beserks, me vs pest(dual axe) when he was 64 and i was 53 on my rogue (using daggers at that time) it took me like 15 tries to be able to kill him although possible not practical odds for jobbing, but if i were closer to his lvl i'm sure i'd have won more, but warriors are always the biggest pain to kill with a rogue

dual axes are probably better than daggers if you dont use buff :S i mean axes have about same damage skills + same speed on attacks

except axes can sprint + skin
while daggers only have higher crit (ok... so this part might kill but skins would lower this a lot)

and sprint + shield trash combo will cancel attacks 90% of time

thnk u ppl!! for d overwhelming response(see i was rit,my post doesn't get noticed in characters section..... )

nywayz, cming back to the point,
so wht i conclude is, tht both xbow and daggers are good for pvp-just ur pick
and DD and XX are not at all a necessity while grinding or kicking some arse

but then since DD and XX decrease defenses, so while grinding, getting mobbed=dead (so this means, nothing would beat a bard subclass, noise can enable u to grind high levels without being mobbed by d general monsters, juz pick up the champs and screw them), but then it is useless in pvp except d speed buff, which can prove 2 be useful for a xbow rogue, knockdown and run away with scud, stealth, and then some nice strong attack.
but, been through lot of posts and i feel, tht warlock can also prove to be a really good sub, especially bcoz of the life leech, stun, and ability to equip shield(req. when knocked down)and ofcourse d debuffs.
these are very good for pvp, but as far as pve is concerned with xbow, i can't understand how they can be useful(good war warriors and dagger rogues), coz all of these skills will aggro the monster, which is not good for xbow.

as for cleric, the four standard skills, useful in pvp and pve, but very CONVENTIONAL, we need to think OUT OF THE BOX.

ny suggestions/opinions

bard is also good got cure skill... warlock debuffs also get cured

i dont get this at all.. i was pvping with 2handed warrior i used DD and i lsot (we are the same lvl and both farmed/npc gear) then i tried without DD and i won

Thats because 2h has low defense and when you turned off DD, you still had powerful moves but with a good defense. High DPS plus prick and screw is win.

rogue is really the "lone wolf" you would say in jobbing and sorts of pvp like ctf. with my low lvl rogue i stealth and wait for the whole other team (on ctf btw) to pass me (and if they didnt pk2 edit stealth )i would turn around and take them by surprise (with xbow btw). most people iv seen use rogues they dont use tactics at all they just run in with dd and kill one person to get owned by the person next to them. so in my opinion rogues are not overrated or (i would say) not being used like a true rogue. im sure there are some good rogues out there i just havent seen them.

I personally love rogues. As said though your usually left grinding alone because no one wants a rogue in a 8pt. But for grinding you can turn on CE on passive mobs and fly by them. Usually on new servers you'll see rogues on sonars and snipers before alot of other people.
For big job wars xbow is good, you can start knocking out tons of people from a distance.
For pvp I used daggers without DD on for everyone except warriors. For warriors I actually used DD to basically kill them before they kill me. @ 72 I could kill lvl 80 tanks with daggers. It all comes down to your gear & the order you use the dagger attacks because they take long to cool off.
& of course tons of rogues get unique kills by using distance to their advantage. I'd have my wolf or other players tanking everything as I sit back turn CE on and get the kill.
& of course being able to kill players way higher than you is always fun.

i woudln't recomend using daggers to grind solo, but if you are in a party you'll be more usefull are a daggers rogue, if you get a fence on you can almost tank as good as a warrior, juse use your aoe posion to sub for taunts and keep that damage flowing out, you'll hold the agro (of course you can't hold the agro of more then a few mobs, but that can be all it takes to save the ints)you're dmg out put on a single target will out do the wizzards making a rogue very helpfull for vs a party giant, of course you better be using desperate daggers in a party other wise you're worthless there.

Cross bow with out xtreme on can tank well for fighting a giant get in the first few hits with extreme on and switch it off so you can survive, keep up the knock back and knock down, and you should be ok, with out extmreme on you almost act like you're a real str build again

i hope that helped clear it up, but really the only good way to learn how to use the versitality of the rogue is to get out there and experiment, learn from what kills you and learn from what didn't get you killed

If a bard subclass sucks for a rogue, what would you suggest a rogue use as a sub? I have a bard subclass on my rogue simply for the speed buffs and preemptive attack prevention skills.

Only way you'll get in a 8pt. is if you have a bard subclass.
The other choices although it'll be for solo play would be cleric and warlock. With cleric you get holy word, bless, & all the little heals. So you can always throw on bless for a giant of in job wars when you wanna tank a few hits. Warlock I'd say is more for pvp. You can easily debuff someone then stun or sleep switch to daggers and take them out. In the event they have holy word higher than your debuffs still wont matter you're a rogue and will hit insane crits. Warlock just gives your opponent less of a chance.

I'm not exactly able to do 8-man, with any build, so I stick to solo. Also I don't PVP very much so I'm guessing cleric would be a better sub for me. I have bard right now but can delevel it since it's not very high yet.

The thing that confuses me somewhat, is since I'm an STR, wouldn't an STR build be better as a sub? I think bard, warlock, and cleric are all INT builds aren't they?