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Ok... so there have been some 120-cap skill trees out there lately, and word has it that Chinese skill-lvl cap will still be 300.

So, is SRO gonna be even less balanced than now?



Skill-wise:

Chiense Nuker: needs 360 (>300) skill lvls to get fire-lit-ice capped.
Euro Wizard: needs 120 skill lvls to get fire-lit-ice-earth capped. (lit has equivalent to ghostwalk)

All char builds:
Euro == crazy skills and buffs, two trees give them speed and damage-output
Chinese == constantly restricted by that 300 skill lvl cap... have to choose between defence and offence and speed (@ later lvls)


Damage-wise:

Euro damage = 1.5~2 * Chinese damage
AND... they have too many stun/KD/Knock-back skills...
Quick skill execution... much faster than average Chinese char's...


Tactical superiority:

invisible/stealth... vs... snow-shield... (firefly and stuff have short range... useless)

I wonder how your enemies can hit you if they can't even see you... plus... you get to choose when to strike

on the other hand, the Chinese char can only wait and guess at his/her fate(plus his 120 sec limit on snow shield)... When do I turn it on?... can't the Euro just wait it out and then anihilate the Chinese when his snow shield is down?




Summary:

A good game should be balanced.

Chinese chars make up half the game... or are supposed to... but give me one reason why a Chinese char would be of any use past lvl 90. (even str bow/glaive)

Euro hit harder - we've all seen Wizards running around outside DW 1-hitting everybody
Euro have element of surprise
Euro have a healer class that's actually playable (and that actually does effective healing)
Euro have good mobility (bard)

and soon...

Euro will have MORE SKILLS to use than Chinese... and don't forget, each of their skills is more powerful than the Chinese couter-part...

does JoyMax plan to balance this out with just a pot-delay?

lets face it... lv60 Rogue with damage buff on (kills their defence) can kill a lv69+ Chinese BLADER. (yes, you can find that vid on YouTube, I was quite shocked when my friend first showed it to me) That's a freakin BLADER we are talking about dudes... All done in about 3 seconds...

SRO pots are not INSTANT HEAL (as in... click and u get HP)... Of what good is pot-spamming if the first pot doesn't even take effect before you are dead?


I'm not a botter, so I can't just start a new char as if it doesn't hurt!
I've played for a long time on my int s/s, and i've already had to give up fire for ice (although there is the 0% freeze/frost bug)...

Did the game designers not even THINK when they added the Euro update?

They should at least take away the Chinese skill-lvl cap (and maybe increase our skills' damage percentage to something close to the Euros')

Their pot-delay system is just NOT working... it makes the game TOO HARD to balance!

Why not just remove Euro pot-delay or give Chinese the pot-delay too? and then they can make the chars equal!

Its not hard for the creators to just make the attack damage of chinese skills a whole lot higher, or chinese weapons / armors to have a whole lot more stats.

If they want to balance it, they can. It really isn't all that hard to do.

there is a euro vs chinese war going on? why was i not invited.

oh wait. both euro and chinese can pt and guild together.

its simple. if i have 3 hours to play each day i play a euro. i find a good pt and level really fast.

if i have 20 min to play before school, 10 min during computer class, 15 min after school, 30 min before dinner, an hour after dinner, and 20 min before bedtime, id play a chinese char. no euro pt will put up with that bs for long.

forming a euro pt that knows your play styal takes a long time. you need to get to know your pt members. if you are gone alot on trips and stuff, a euro wont ever work out for you.



when it comes to pvp, a euro warrior can buff a chinese archer, add some cleric buffs on top and the chinese archer is deadly while having the advantages of a euro party. with a few good crits the archer can kill even the best of tanks without dieing to any euro build due to tank buffs.

the good news: bots dont work in teams. they love solo. master team work and you will pwn 99% of all players on your server, euro or chinese.

my response to a plan to balance... the Persian/ arbian race (when it comes out)
i have my fingers crossed. that maybe they'll balance it all out so it is like

chinese better than persians, euros weaker than persians, chinese weaker than persians.

like lets say the rumours are true persians can dual wield
now imagine a duel wield+ a persian equivalent of grasswalk
now lets say, they're all REALLY REALLY REALLY fast. but have medium damage
so they're equivilent to chinese Bladers on drugs of tyhpoon.

atleast that is my dream

the islam race has already confirmed there weapons. its in a thread in GD. sword, blade, claw, chokram.

they are based on summons. your basicly a summoner. make some genies, genies kill noobs, you get exp. woot woot.

dude... I was talking about PVP balance for ALL characters... try buffing up a Chinese Nuker at lv120 so that he/she stands a chance in pvp..lol...

300 skill cap is just... ridiculous!

Also, where did I mention a chn/euro war? Its simply a comparison between the character classes. Honestly speaking, you can say all you want about team work, but there are plenty of times (job or fortress war - not to mention cape) when you have to face an opponent 1 on 1.

2-handers kill Glaivers all the time... (and they are supposed to be equivalent to each other)
wizards can 1-hit pure int Chinese nukers, and generally tend to do 1.5 times as much damage (or more) they can 2-hit a glaiver... you call that balanced?

and then there's the rogue... the UNSTOPPABLE assasin... where do you find an equivalent to that? (this applies to all builds, but 2-handers can rush and wizards can go invisible, wut about the Chinese characters? Ever heard of a invisibility/stealth skill for the Chinese chars?)

Btw... bots don't work in teams when they bot... and you know how many Euro botters there are out there... EURO update did NOTHING to discourage bots

btw... you said a Euro would need to get to know his party members... and that players who have random playing schedules would play Chinese chars... so how does your idea of a Chinese char, all of a sudden, find a good Euro party so that they can buff him for pvp?

Chinese characters (judging from design of pot delay) are supposed to be independent, self-sustaining characters... but the fact is, they AREN'T... and thus my reasoning that the game designers unfairly gimped half the players, and especially the legit players who don't bot. We don't have the time to begin from scratch and grind out another lv80.

how disapointing.... thanks for telling me though atelast now i wont have my hopes up
for a race of fast bladers

what the hell are you saying that euros are overpowered? yes in pvp they are but now talk about pve. a wizard can crank out far more damage than a chinese nuker indeed. but the nuker can survive more than two hits like a wizard. bards and clerics are great but they lack the damage to play solo so always need a party to shine. warriors are inferior to pure str bladers and rogues will need a party and a high lvl to be strong. chinese chars dont have crazy damage or insane healing but can at least play solo!!! i wont complain if euro damage drops but then they should also increase there ability to solo play.

FWX :" I've played for a long time on my int s/s, and i've already had to give up fire for ice "

Ey dude...u dont need to give up fire for ice....
For s/s u should use on cap 90 :
90 bitcheon
90 fire
60 lighting
60 ice
And u can be in Protector eq
Thats it.

Btw, game isn`t balanced yet...

This post is very relevant to how most "legit" players who have a chinese build. I myself have a pure int s/s and am of course legit, I have had my chinese char way before the euro update, and i spend countless millions pimping my gear "not just normal gear, but sox etc" and making sure i am constantly fully farmed at my level range "i tend to do a 100k sp farm per 10 levels" and still, to see a wizard 1 hit me with all that effort ive done, or the rogue just vanish and get a crit on me really does annoy me. I feel this would be ok if chinese had just one major skill that could counter act this a little, snow shield imo just doesnt make up for the benefits euros have over chinese right now. But im sure this will change, and its not totally one sided, i kill most wizards my level range, just if i get hit first i kinda require a block haha!

A good game should be balanced.

i am pure str glavier80+cold80+ice60+fire80 - fullfarmed with glavie +9 , phy 100%, +5 set full blue...
killed from any rogue or wizzard on just one hit.........have no any chance to survive...
so i have made this char for 8 mounths , and the result is piece of shit.!!!!!

Repair the game

maybe you should start to learn how to use your skills instead of bitch about your own stupidity.
yes a wizard or rogue can 1 shot you if you are not prepared.
if you know there is a wizard or rogue you have enough skills to at least block their first attack if you can block their first hit then you can surely 1 shot them too

you get 1shot by a wiz and you're glaive?

learn ur skills.

FWX

come cry at mummy's shoulder... it's alright don't cry mummy is here...

I agree with what topic starter is saying, my 54 glavier (Heuk 53 Fire 46 Light 32 Cant remember what level ice is) does die to warriors 2 levels lower. And im not a BAD glavier... i know how to play glavie but i dont like close ranged attacks. Thats why im with my nukers now.

The game is very unbalanced from what I can see when I play too. But I HOPE the game creaters do something... Till then im leveling my rogue... so i dont get screwed over by the update.

Don't even mention the pot-delay piece of junk dude..


Fact:

-Euro bots are EVERYWHERE!!!! wizards, warriors, warlocks, rogues... come on... Euro characters are not limited by the pot-delay in PvE!!! If they really "sucked" at PvE, it would require their damage to be a lot lower. Right now, Euro chars hit 2 fast and 2 hard - out of proportion kind of high...


Therefore:

EURO are good for PvE as well as PvP dude, even when they solo, or why would there be so many Euro bots?

dude... rogue x-bow or dagger... with 75% damage increase and Crit (crit on daggers are much higher than other weapons)... those one-shots ppl like mad...

"and note: phy: 100%"... that means a "almost pure"... not PURE pure... so yeah... that can happen


ALSO: 1-shot a rogue/wizard? rogues have turbo and wizards have the equivalent of ghostwalk... and the rogues/wizards usually have bard as sub class... so they can run fast too... plus... THEY ARE INVISIBLE and CAN SHOOT YOU BEFORE YOU SEE THEM!!!

Btw... rogues are usually PURE STR... lol... 1 hit won't happen

also... go to youtube and search lv80 wizard... lol... check out how long a pure str Chinese bower took to kill a pure INT wizard (with Cleric buffs)

// MY BAD... EDITED: "pure str wizard" is a typo

wtf? a pure str wizard? thats like alcoholfree beer: the best is out of it!!!!

Lol overlooked a bit of above discussions,but hellyeah Full sun chinese getting wiped by euro's with a mere +5 weapon..Just lovely,with a cup of tea^^

I consider 2 skills overpowered in Euro that im aware of let me just mention these and mention ANY chinese skill that can come close.

-Bless-Godmode,what chinese skill equals it?
-Stealth,Did u think 10 meter detect/pill would evaaaaa detect a 25+ meter distance shot from Rogue?^^

ChopChop keep botting those Chinese chars,they won't be worth sQuad in the long run and I totally agree with the topicstarter=)

at the 150 lvl cap, most str chinese would be glavie/blade+fire and int chinese would be ice+light(just use nukes weapon skills are useless) and equip a int weap for dmg boosts

i think it will happen

It will happen... but at this rate, the damage a Chinese pure INT nuker deals will be less than that done by a Euro rogue...LAME...that's the only word for SRO's "game balance"...

and btw... BigBamboo (nice name btw) its more like "chopchop, keep botting those Euro rogues and wizards and warriors, you'll PWN everyone"...lol... a mere pot-delay can't beat the Almighty bot, especially when it has kick-ass skills that can one-shot anything... I wonder why JM made it that way... maybe they own the bot companies and feel the urge to make bots work for all characters...(honestly, why do you think the GM's can't do squat to the bots?)

OK! Lets reduce euro damage to 30% damage of chinese blader, lets leave euro with potion delay! Lets make game better!
Do you think only rogues and wizards play this full of bots game?

Yeah, everybody takes bard as subclass...



Chinese has potions each 1 sec, + force mastery.



Without that element rogue isnt rogue.



Have you ever saw wizard pure int that survives first 2 hits?



How do you know what will be in future? Warriors for each weapon have already 6-8 skills, and i dont thing they will get more.


Did your friend show you how fast rogue dies from 10-5 lvls weaker nuker?


Make mastery cap 900, increase percentage of skills to 450, give buffs with 50% dmg absorb and 40% damage increase and game will be balanced.



Please make mag balance equal to phy def balance(75%/75%), automatically make hybrids 1:1, make speed and power of weapons equal and all skills with same percentage and power. Bad? Is it different from your suggestion?

i think you misunderstand my reply: i am saying that most european professions have inferior abilitys to SOLO PLAY. indeed they are powerfull, and yes when in a party they are unstoppable but stop saying wizards and warlocks and other euros dominate the game. where do warlocks stand in pve with their low hp and damage? and how much hits from a champion monster can a wizard take, put aside a giant. and how many monsters can be killed solo by a clerick/bard with their low damage. you will see the "overpowered" wizard cranking out insane damage, then get swarmed and dies while the "underpowerd" chinese nuker, protected by bicheon, snow shield and tons of pots still killing happily. what did you said about overpowering? at least in pve you will find chinese isnt much weaker than euro, just different.

Soloing pt monsters and giants, putting curses on monsters and leaving them like that. Warlocks has damage compared to chinese hybrid 1:5 int spear, but it looks like low.

indeed. however if you do the math rarely more than 10% of the xp you gain comes from party/giants. again i dont say warlocks are bad, i just can stand hearing they are overpowered as quite frankly, no matter how strong they are, in pve they defenitely dont overclass a fully farmed chinese char. at best they are equal. and as the topic suggests this is about chinese/euro balance, not opinions on european classes. o yes and plz comment my reply, rather than just complaining about one thing. i intended my reply as a comment about the "euros are overpowered" mantra, not as an attack on the warlock, which is a profession that i oftenly saw fighting with great effect.

Euro:
+ Hard damage
+ Surprise effect
+ Better buffs
+ Very strong in party
+ Very strong one kind of defense

- Huge Potion delay(15 seconds)
- You cant get all buffs alone
- Very weak one kind of defense
- Only few attacking skills compared to chinese
- VERY hard farming(very high damage difference, impossible to wear set for your degree)
- You can wear only 1-2 kinds of armor

Chinese:
+ Very small potion delay(1 second)
+ You can get more buffs than euro when you are alone
+ You can wear all kinds of armor
+ Easy to lvl solo, and always it can get into euro party
+ A lot of skills compared to euro

- Low damage
- When get affected by panic or combustion state, then he gets useless until state disappeares.
- Weak buffs compared to those which euro can get
- If not prepared often dies in 1 hit from some euro builds (wizard, rogue, cleric, 2h sword)
- Healing much weaker against cleric's healing

Hah ,
Have fight with lvl.80 fullfarmed rogue -xbow????
You CAN`T touch him............ knock back all the time until him last critical hit..and you are dead.

Have you fight with lvl.80 fullfarmed wizzard?
i have been even with shield+5 + snowshield 44% + blocking ratio 34% - result is 2 hits and i am dead.

All defence skills from cold and fire are at max level even fire shield - Emperor
I can tell you my characteristics:
21968 HP, 8458 MP, phy def. 1023, mag.def. 1518
balance ---108% phy + 44% mag. - is that bad???

YOU CAN do NOTHING IF YOU CAN`t see the enemy. I have even invisible and stealt detect 8 level - useless shits.

want to sell that char in Pacific and make euro char

I found it sad that my lvl 48 int S/S can get 1 hit by a lvl 38 rogue xbow. He comes out of the safe zone and pulls off a quick skill and boom, I'm dead...even WITH castle shield on. I can use ice wall, but most likely he will shoot me before i can even get it up. I don't have time to run up to him and knock him down and lion shouts don't do the trick. So then he goes stealth mode, I'm like "haha, I got him now with my fire vision!" I quickly use the skill, he is visible, but now he KNOWS he's visable and he instantly attacks me before i can even click on him. Of course I can 1 hit him as well, but the chinese nukes are so slow, which makes it even HARDER against wizards since their cast times are so fast...

(Haven't read a single post)

What's the point of discussing the balance between the 2. They are for completely different playstyles in both PvP and PvE. And people will continue to make both even if one is show to be weaker than the other.

Dark_Ness, This is in response to your first post in this thread

Let me just point out some of the points you missed and some logical inconsistencies in your argument.

You opened up with a quote completely unrelated to my topic.
"Lets reduce euro damage to 30% damage of chinese blader"
Your understanding of my arguments seems twisted beyond belief. Exaggeration should be used with discretion! While 30% is too little, you must agree that 600~1000+% is a little high for a pure str char (rogue)

Point by point (according to your comments) from now on:

- yeah, not everyone has bard as subclass, but expendable items achieve similar effects. I wish i could buy a 1800 second effect potion that gives me 370% damage multiplier. Considering that I'm pure int, that's not too greedy, is it?

- my point about cleric being "playable" isn't ONLY about how it can heal. I'd gladly take Force tree if it had something 75% as good as bless. (for 45s at a time too)

- If i remember right, my points about element of surprise were made in conjunction with those regarding their high damage. The co-existence of the two is what makes the game unbalanced.

- I have seen a rogue survive past first 5 hits from a pure str Chinese archer.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3SqNFGn4pbw

- True, warriors have few skills each weapon, but weapon switch happens. You also picked the most skill-starved euro class for this. What about a full farmed wizard/cleric? how many buffs would he have? (correct me if i'm wrong, but cleric is a VERY popular sub-class, so Lots of Euro chars have more buffs than Chinese - don't forget, Chinese have to spend lots of skill mastery level on weapons too)
Btw... "How do you know what will be in future? Warriors for each weapon have already 6-8 skills, and i dont thing they will get more."... You seem to know the future like it was yesterday too.

- Also, I don't need my friend to show me how easily a rogue can die from a 10-5 lv weaker nuker - IT NEVER HAPPENS (unless he does 75% dmg buff and stands there without pots and other buffs) In contrast, do I have to show you how easily a Chinese nuker dies to a rogue 5-10 levels lower than them? Maybe you meant the opposite?

- Again, exaggeration. My arguments don't always sound the way you want them to sound.
btw..."skills' damage percentage to something close to the Euros"... i'd be satisfied with something CLOSE to the euros'! We are currently at ~60-70% for nukers, and our nukes have longer execution time than wizard skills.

- Lastly, (this may have been an unclear message in my original post) my point was that the slop-sided pot-delay design is the primary reason why JM overcompensated and gave Euro chars too much power. My proposal was to remove it so that the balance can be more easily maintained.
You seem to have understood my argument as "remove all singularity from the game". I apologize if it sounded that way, but I guarantee you that the purpose of the post is to seek improvements in a game that I play, not to destroy the game that I play.


From here on is for wdwarrior


Warlocks can solo just fine when they are not botting.

Wizard bots do exist. Their KS power should not be unknown to you.

As of Warrior(especially 2HS) and Rogue(xbow or daggers), you should know that they make kick-ass bots when in xp-distribution parties. (you rarely get party mobs that way)
Btw, rogue is one of the fastest-leveling builds in the game, their solo leveling speed is comparable to (if not superior to) Chinese Nukers.

Where do warlocks stand in pve, lets just say that they can heal themselves just as well as a Chinese without pots. Don't forget that most Euros do have sub-classes, warlock-cleric wouldn't be "weak" in pve at all.

And honestly, do you ever see a wizard soloing on monsters their level? I've once see wizards botting right past my level (they are usually 3-5 levels above mob, even when farming). They gobble up Giants just fine.

You mentioned Cleric/bards. That's a rarely-seen pure-support class. Most people have cleric and bard as their sub-classes. that's not what they use to deal damage.

I've personally never seen a wizard imprudent enough to use earth on equal-leveled mobs. Even though I never had a decent leveled wizard, I have seen guild-mates botting with wizards. They can dominate huge areas. (and make it very painful for legit players)

Yes, Chinese aren't weaker than Euro in PvE, but its not like SRO is the-game-to-play for its PVE. Yes, in PvE, we are just different (not weaker), but in PvP, we are absolutely owned ALL THE TIME. I wouldn't post this thread if it was because we lost using inferior equipments. The fact is that a Euro with +5 weapon can kill a Chinese in full SoSun. That is just a complete lack of balance. (What do you think a Euro with SoSun wep will be doing, huh?)





Again, I feel like getting back to the topic of my thread : BALANCE.

That means balance of players in every way.

Euros are less effective in solo PvE, but MUCH MUCH more effective in team PvE.
Euros are MUCH more effective in solo PvP, and they are MUCH MUCH MUCH more effective in team PvP.

That's IMBALANCE.

To Dark_Ness: This is how I've broken down game-play. (solo pve, team pve, solo pvp, team pvp)
All of my arguments regarding game balance are based on this. IMO this is more realistic than a list of vague points(quantifiable descriptions done qualitatively). The conclusions I drew according to my classification method is purely based on commonly perceived results. Look on Youtube and go pvp yourself, and you'll know that they are accurate (sufficient for my A>>B type of comparison)