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 Post subject: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:41 pm 
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Many of you keep suggesting 90 weapon/90 fire/90 light/30 ice STR builds.
The thing is, its just not that good and you're more than often gonna end up getting the person massacred in pvp, or theyll have to run away.

what exactly does lightning provide to everyone that is so appealing?

First of all, the figures for 90 light look like this =>

Maxed Force Piercing Force = 18% magical boost.
Maxed Grasswalk = 77% moving speed gained at lvl 85.
Maxed Ghostwalk = 23 meters at lvl 90.
Maxed Concentration = 34 Parry gained at lvl 89.
Maxed Passive = 33 Parry at 90.

In total it takes 166,488 SP to get all that maxed. Congrats, you can kill monsters *applause*.

Now im giving you my perfect 90 cap STR build =>
90 weapon/90 fire/72 ice/48 light

lvl 72 Ice is just good enough for Might Guard of Ice lvl 3.
Might Guard lvl 3 = 63 Physial defense.
Ice Passive = 59 Physical defense.
combined they equal 122 physical defense.
what can you compare that much raw physical defense to?
a completely clean 89 garm leg minus the reinforce.
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how much defense is 30 ice? 8 from passive, 8 from the soft guard of ice buff. A whopping 16 physical defense. "But you're a strength char you already have high physical defense" thats so much bull, the increased physical defense makes a world of difference and you wouldn't understand until you pvped someone with high ice. Next up is grasswalk...

--

We can clear out the grasswalk due to typhoons or bards.
77% grasswalk+garments give you 97% moving speed. It doesn't go beyond that, you get a new book of grasswalk 7 levels after you've maxed out the previous book and from the looks of it the new one is coming at lvl 92.

against monsters with a 72 ice/ 48 light build that ive stated you have 53% moving speed.
Thats already better than moving speed scrolls, and with garms you have 73% MOVING SPEED!!!!
if you can't tolerate 73% speed then you're just way too impatient, 73% is remarkable for 48 light

--

Now parry ratio, has anyone really seen a difference between 25 and 30 parry ratio? Whenever i lvled up parry, it felt like a waste of sp. Anyway, we'll treat this as if a few points actually mattered...oh wait they kinda dont.

You can increase your parry ratio on each equipment by over 20%.
How much parry are we at for a typical player this 90 cap? like 400 parry?
a Parry ratio scroll, which increases your parry by 30%, would increase your parry by 120 Points with that given figure. That's how significant of a parry change you must have in order to feel a difference, not the 1 point of parry you gain by lvling up concentration once.

lvl 90 concentration (34 parry) + passive (33 parry) = 67 parry points
lvl 48 concentration (23 parry) + passive (21 parry) = 44 parry points

A difference of 23 Parry, big difference? thats a big fat lol

-

now we've got the magical buff.
18% at lvl 88,
17% at lvl 78,
16% at lvl 68,

just to go from 16% to 18% it takes a crazy 54,000 SP. Is that worth it for 2% more mag when you're str?
That's almost insignificant, the only INT you have is the 1 int you get just for lvling up, and whatever int you have on your gears. And even then only 2% of that is added to your imbue damage, thats almost nothing. But why even 16% mag boost?

for 16% magical boost (force piercing force lvl 1) you need to have lvl 68 lightning.
after that level it takes forever to gain 1% more magical damage, yet for some reason the previous levels come by easier.

12% at lvl 48
13% at lvl 51
15% at lvl 54

wow it goes up 3% in 6 levels, wheras from lvl 68 to 88 (20 levels) it only goes up 2%.
Point is, completely not worth it for STR which gain very little from it.
12% is more than enough, which gives you 48 light. Joymax knows it, I know it, and you are now informed of it.

Lastly we have Ghostwalk - Shadow (or phantom for low lvls).
It would be nice if it wasn't a complete ripoff.
from lvl 32-65 each time you lvled it up it gave you a 1 meter increase.
Then for some reason it dropped to .5 meters, yet cost five times more SP.

lvl'ing up the skill from 62 to 65 phantom costs 4,658 sp for 21meters
lvl'ing up the skill from 84 to 90 shadow costs .. 24,746 for 23meters

wait...what...lvl 62 phantom compared to 90 phantom..the difference is only 2 meters? lol.
yes thats right people, its only a 2 meter difference.

but with my build, lvl 48 light, its only 15meters. Its 8 meters shorter than 90 light so its a Big difference.
15 meters is good enough though, believe me it wont be as necessary when people with 90 light have to run away from YOU because they can't do enough damage on you to kill you.

Face it, no one can kill anyone thats moving, a 90 light person with 97% speed (garms) cant kill a 48 light person with MUCH HIGHER physical defense that has a typhoon on, its just impossible, the moving speed the build provides which is 73% moving speed with garms is even extremely hard to take down, the opponent gets out of range too often, its just not happening.


In conclusion,

1)the parry ratio difference is shit,
2)the magical boost difference is shit,
3)the grasswalk can be replaced with a typhoon, bard, or you can tolerate the 73% moving speed from the grasswalk buff+ garms which is still spectacular considering its 48 light,
4)122 physical defense from your Ice is much better than someone with 18% magical boost compared to your 12% magical boost.

Overall, you are much stronger than someone with 90 light.
And whats sexy is that you also have 3 different Snow Shield books all used for different occasions.

It is the perfect STR Build, so f*ck you guys telling all newcomers that 90 weap/90 fire/90 light/30 ice is the way to go, you're just screwing over everyone else and if you're also going with that build then gg for you. Sorry for the 'barotix'-type rant but don't give new people sub par builds, it honestly doesnt help anyone and if you're only doing it because its easier to say 90 weap/90fire/90light/30 cold than all this shit ive written down then just copy and paste or direct them to this topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:45 pm 
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will this work on a bower?
ive always though of the bower as a fast agile opponenent
so does this build work for a bower?

nice work with all the reasearch =]

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:45 pm 
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And in a job fight someone runs away and gets away

(Sorry Had To XD :oops: :oops: )

But then whatta bout 100cap

youd get even slower in that AWFULLY big Tomb

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:48 pm 
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Vandango wrote:
And in a job fight someone runs away and gets away

(Sorry Had To XD :oops: :oops: )

But then whatta bout 100cap

youd get even slower in that AWFULLY big Tomb


Jewel NPC FTW

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:52 pm 
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Burningwolf wrote:
will this work on a bower?
ive always though of the bower as a fast agile opponenent
so does this build work for a bower?

nice work with all the reasearch =]


works with every str chinese, in fact i encourage it.

Vandango wrote:
And in a job fight someone runs away and gets away

(Sorry Had To XD :oops: :oops: )


when some runs away, they're gonna run away regardless. Theres no way a chinese can kill a chinese in 2 skills given there are good sets involved, the range is just too small for the attack, not even a bowman can kill a target thats running away cuz after the first strongbow the guys already out of range, and if you start with an arrow combo to try to slow him down followed by the strongbow thats not gonna kill any str char, ever. A nuker can't catch up and successfully launch 2 nukes, after the first one the enemy is already out of range. If the build i just mentioned is running away from a wiz and has 40% snow shield up, he's not even dying from that. This build can do anything and everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:57 pm 
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gud post m8 , som true shyt

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:06 pm 
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U are right in almost everything, that most light skill can be replaced with silk items and scrolls. But are u rich enough to afford?

And this build can only be applied in cap 90. At cap 140, ppl will know what to choose.

And remember a bow without light is not a bow.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:10 pm 
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just one word to you
Fkin great information thank you very much you rock xD

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:19 pm 
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even w/ 100%+honor speed buff, u can't catch up to some1 who has phantom...or u can't run away from some1 who has phantom, lol

why lightning instead of ice...

1) it takes time (if u have good gear) for a pure str to kill another pure str

2)high parry ratio (500+ now w/ 90cap) means u have the ability to reduce both physical/magical dmg by 500+ or so wat ur parry is...so parry is like another kind of defense against high dmg

3)u get a convenient speed skill, means u can stay cheap on not wasting x amount gold on drugs or wasting ur time picking up speed tabs

4)u get phantom

5)u get mag.attk boost (even if some1 is pure str, they will do a lot more dmg just adding on imbue, so means mag.attk buff will be helpful)

there ya go, unless u wanna b a true tank (little/slow movement, XD)take ice


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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:20 pm 
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Damn Fudge ... the only thing that makes me happy about Chinese is running around and phantoming ... now you ruined it :P

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:21 pm 
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QuestionMark wrote:
MrFudge
just one word to you
Fkin great information thank you very much you rock xD

thats 9... 10 including the smiley :P

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:34 pm 
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HBblade wrote:
even w/ 100%+honor speed buff, u can't catch up to some1 who has phantom...or u can't run away from some1 who has phantom, lol

why lightning instead of ice...

1) it takes time (if u have good gear) for a pure str to kill another pure str
you just proved why Ice is better than lightning. The lightning char has to be able to out-tank the ice char, they cant do that cuz they have way less defense. You can't out-tank a tank with a non-tank. :roll:

2)high parry ratio (500+ now w/ 90cap) means u have the ability to reduce both physical/magical dmg by 500+ or so wat ur parry is...so parry is like another kind of defense against high dmg
wow 500 parry this cap? that just further proves my point. You miss 22 parry from 90 to 48 light, yet you gain basically another equipment garm piece in terms of physical defense. Not only that but you know how bad those scrolls are that we get during events, 30% parry scroll with your max parry of 500 gives you 150 extra parry from a single scroll. That means in order to see a difference, you need somewhere around that much parry added, 22 more parry isnt going to do anything, in fact you will gain more defense just from the physical defense buffs that 72 ice gives you rather than the amount of less *invisible* damage you will receive from 22 parry points

3)u get a convenient speed skill, means u can stay cheap on not wasting x amount gold on drugs or wasting ur time picking up speed tabs
you think 73% moving speed is bad? lol.
thats as fast as 80 light for an armor user. Its still fast. Speed tabs arent worth it, the elements cost more to make than you would spend on a typhoon.


4)u get phantom
15 meter phantom is longer than chinese nukes. Phantom is to catch up on enemies, if an enemy is running away in a straight line you CANT kill them anyway. For bowmen, phantom is to increase range, 15 meters is good enough for phantom+arrow combo. Chinese nukes are 10meters, and the first nukes are probably just short of 15 meters, but they cant kill you with snow shield on anyway.

5)u get mag.attk boost (even if some1 is pure str, they will do a lot more dmg just adding on imbue, so means mag.attk buff will be helpful)
silghtly less damage, yes slightly less but much more physical defense.
one outweighs the other by a margin. someone with 18% force piercing force hitting you will do less damage than you hitting someone with 12% must piercing force because you have a ton more defense than them.

there ya go, unless u wanna b a true tank (little/slow movement, XD)take ice
debunked.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:34 pm 
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i knew 90 light is pointless, so i took 60 light/cold...let me quote myself from a previous topic (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=87521)that i made on my delema when i was deciding on my build

huejas wrote:
90 light vs 60 light:
-only 13 parry difference
-only 3% mag atk difference
-phantom 4m difference
-and the biggest difference is grass walk which is 59% at lv.60 and 77% at 90...but i dont mind using 100% speed pot


huejas wrote:
lets look at 100 cap:
-parry goes up by another 5
-mag buff stays the same
-phantom goes from 23m to 23.5m -_-
-grass walk stays the same


For 100 cap il do 100 bow/fire 50 cold/light i think

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:34 pm 
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Parry means a lot. Look at the nukes, the mins dmg is the half of the max power. So it's very usefull.

This is run with max light and phantom
Code: Select all

And this is 1-2 shots kill like Fudge claim to be impossible
Code: Select all

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:41 pm 
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silo you just showed me a full sun 100% perfect garm set owned by d2a pre 80 skills, meaning after lvl 60 ice didnt give you sh1t. There was no point in going any higher ice than that.

the second vid is liquidsmooth barely using phantom only taking advantage of his bow range.
he 2 hits people not of worth, the only one taking decent damage was that int that only took a 12k crit from zerk. The one glaiver he had to outtank was only done cuz liquid had 40% snow and decent phys defense from ice, which he wouldnt be able to have at this cap with 90 light 30 ice.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:47 pm 
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MrFudge wrote:
silo you just showed me a full sun 100% perfect garm set owned by d2a
and liquidsmooth barely using phantom only taking advantage of his bow range.

The first vid is to show the consequence of not running faster than the enemies (some stuns = dead)
The 2nd vid is to show 1-2 shots kill is possible.

Combine these 2, it will be a godlike killer.

Ok, im agreed that build works in and only in cap 90!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:58 pm 
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lol, 1-2 hitting ints that don't have snow on, and wear shitty sets with a sun bow...no one should be proud of that haha. Parry ratio is useful, but simply buy a trigger scroll and problem fixed. But remember you can't buy 122 extra phy def, well unless you can afford sun items 90 ice is alot better than 90 light.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:01 pm 
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JesusLOL wrote:
lol, 1-2 hitting ints that don't have snow on, and wear shitty sets with a sun bow...no one should be proud of that haha. Parry ratio is useful, but simply buy a trigger scroll and problem fixed. But remember you can't buy 122 extra phy def, well unless you can afford sun items 90 ice is alot better than 90 light.


122 phys defense is only from 72 ice.
i dont suggest 90 ice, really high tanking ability but you have no phantom, your mag buff is down to 7%, and for anyone who is obsessed with parry its down to 17 i think.
you are also with 30% moving speed if you dont want to buy typhoon.
72 ice/48 light is better :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:03 pm 
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Yea. My mistake sorry, I meant 72 light.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:49 pm 
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Great idea, but what about 100cap?


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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:21 am 
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hm sounds good for str vs str :S
since nukers wont be affected by phy def on ice as much

but ugh... this build relies on garms, so you lose about 72 def from not using prot

I'd rather take like 65 light and 55 ice and use prot
just 12 def less (I used npc stats from website)
6m more on phantom
11 more parry
3% more mag attack
speed is same 73% (63% + 10% prot)

so the 11 parry might make for for 12 phy def :S don't know lol, but you get 3% extra damage lol so you might come out even lol, I guess I'd prefer phantoming 6m longer lol but basically these two builds would come out even except for phantom which is a plus on 65light/55 ice

edit: well, the lower ice wall would hurt if you rely on it, but i don't see many using it yet so I didn't count for it, and i guess its a loss if you want the extra 10% mp cost reduction :S

edit 2: well i guess the 3% wouldnt mean much since garms as a bit more mag def than prot lol but builds are still basically even


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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:31 am 
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90 Light is great...those that don't have it is cuz they are probably too lazy to farmed.

I have 117% moving speed with honor buff. faster then anyone even those item mall tigers/ostrich.

Easy to get alway from anyone that is chasing u. and easy to catch up anyone running alway. and trust me u can kill someone that is running alway unless u are very weak. on job wars/guild wars is also helpful as many players do chase u and its easy to lure someone to fight 1v1

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:32 am 
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Sorry, but I didn't completely read everything. I want to comment on your thought of ice being as much as a pair of legs.. you're wrong. The passives itself are just concrete values and the items you wear are base value which increases off your build. I don't know how exactly it works, but you just don't gain 100 def from a shield now do you?

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:50 am 
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Toshiharu wrote:
Sorry, but I didn't completely read everything. I want to comment on your thought of ice being as much as a pair of legs.. you're wrong. The passives itself are just concrete values and the items you wear are base value which increases off your build. I don't know how exactly it works, but you just don't gain 100 def from a shield now do you?


actually i quickly put on a random shield i could find, it said phys defense 97.8 on it and when i equipped it my defense jumped by 156 (cuz of the reinforce too) so i dont know where you're comin from.
also, when you cast a buff or have a passive activated, whatever says on the description goes into your characters stats. Lastly, when you equip a headpiece or whatever and it says physical defense 100, it will increase your chars stats to about +140. These defense number changes are cuz of the equipment's reinforces. So maybe the garm legs say 121 physical defense, but theyll actually bump you up to 180 or so, but i stated it was without the reinforces :wink: . If you want to inclue with the reinforces, the ice defense at 72 would prob give you as much defense as an 82 garm foot unpimped, but i cant really test that one out cuz i dont feel like looking for one thats clean. They prob have some weird equation involved, who knows.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:39 am 
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who cares about 100 cap. You;ve got a year + before we get 100 imo.
Be strong now, delvl it later if you have to.
100fire/wep 60 cold/40 light for 100 cap imo.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:08 am 
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Parry is always underestimated. I will always choose parry over ice. Your already an str you have enough defense already!! The parry makes up for it by making your opponent hit you for less damage. As a bowmen you should hit harder with higher hit ratio.

EDIT: Bows have high mag on there weapons. Adding the Mag buff increase with the fire imbue should make you hit a bit harder. Not THAT hard but it should help.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:14 am 
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Blurred wrote:
Parry is always underestimated. I will always choose parry over ice. Your already an str you have enough defense already!! The parry makes up for it by making your opponent hit you for less damage. As a bowmen you should hit harder with higher hit ratio.

EDIT: Bows have high mag on there weapons. Adding the Mag buff increase with the fire imbue should make you hit a bit harder. Not THAT hard but it should help.

exactly....any chinese build without phantom is worthless in pvp.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:28 am 
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MrFudge, u make a few dam good arguments..ill give that to ya..but using 72 ice would only be good for PHYS DEFENSE...snow shield that lvl is pointless man...think of like 42% snow shield when your pure str...your MP will disappear quicker than a cake in-front of a FAT KID. and when u lose all your MP..you cant phantom away or use ANY skill, making you a sitting duck. ALSO, when your MP runz out, you cant move + damage starts decreasing your HP..then ur rlly fcked.

i want to see a valid argument back to this please..since your good at backing your points up.

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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:34 am 
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back up what point? he didnt say use 42% snow shield :S


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 Post subject: Re: Cold is better than Lightning for STR Chinese
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:35 am 
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With all that defense you will be indeed a cape fight hero, but would love to see a glaive with 100% speed potion trying to catch anyone with ghost walk, movement is important in this game too bad most PVP in Isro is done with the casual "sir you stand there, i stand here and we smash few keys until one dies." :banghead:


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