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 Post subject: [GUIDE]: A rambling Q&A about leveling vs. SP farming
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:13 pm 
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Jabu wrote:
Cham,

In chat last night you recommended that I do lvl 42 with an 8 Gap. I looked up the sp difference and at 42 with a gap of 8 I would get 8149 sp, while a gap 9 would give me 17204 sp.

My question is: How long do you think it would take to grind out lvl 42 with a 8 gap vs a 9 gap? Would it be worth losing 9055 sp doing an 8 gap?

Thanks,

Jab

Table of SP gain per level versus mastery spread
Ratio of EXP to SXP gained per kill at each level versus mastery spread
SP Calculator @ sro.mmosite.com

Comparing the first two tables at level 42, and using the SP calculator to find the exact amount of experience needed for that level, we can get an answer. I haven't run the numbers before so it could turn out that they do not agree with me. Let's find out.

The exact amount of experience required at level 42 to reach level 43 is 5,382,982 according to the calculator. Here I have excerpted the rows for level 42 from the two given tables. The column in red is merely the first multiplied by 400, giving the total amount of skill experience gained rather than SP.
42 905 1107 1358 1682 2113 2716 3622 5131 8149 17204
42 14.86 12.16 9.91 8.00 6.37 4.95 3.72 2.62 1.65 0.78
42 362000 442800 543200 672800 845200 1086400 1448800 2052400 3259600 6881600
Some quick calculations show that the second line multiplied by the third line gives us the total experience required for the level, or 5,382,982. More investigation shows that the horizontal rate of change is approximately 0.81, which is the square of 90%, which would seem to confirm the game help's claim that each added level of difference results in 10% more skill experience and 10% less experience.

So it appears the numbers do not support my claim that a mastery gap is "lossy" or results in more effort for less experience. The key is that although the amount of experience required to level is always the same for a given level, the amount of skill experience is not; therefore 1 exp does not have value equal to 1 sxp. That's how tripling your experience at a small loss of skill experience can be an equal exchange.

To answer your first question, since you would be gaining less than half as much experience per kill, you'd have to kill a little more than double the number of a particular enemy to level.

The answer your second question, let's look at the question holistically (considering the whole, rather than one particular aspect). First of all, you're not "losing" anything; the numbers show that your gains will be the same, merely weighted in one direction of the other. If it will take you slightly more than double the time to level, and you will recieve slightly more than double the SP, consider the following situation.

Character A and character B start from 42 with 0 SP and grind at the same rate. A has a 9 gap, while B has an 8 gap. They keep going until A reaches level 43. B reached that level in slightly less than half the time, and at that point he had 8149 SP, but he continues grinding as long as A is grinding, now also at a 9 gap. When A reaches level 43, they probably have roughly the same amount of SP, but B is a good 30-40% of the way to level 44. So what's the difference?

Ignoring the fact that character B has higher mastery and thus has spent more SP previously than character A (because it is not relavent to the case of a single player considering two different gaps, as he can't change how much SP he has previously gained or spent), the difference is that character A is able to use his SP to have more skills relative to his level, while character B is able to use his EXP to have a higher level relative to actual time spent on the game. In hindsight, this seems obvious - isn't that what SP farming is? But consider this; character A's lower mastery makes it more difficult for him to kill and to survive. Character A spends twice as much time at a given enemy, with great potential to go nucking futs because of it. Character A has less HP and inferior equipment due to his level, which makes life harder when he does things other than grinding (trade, hunt, thief, cape, war). Character A's common drops are worth less when selling to players or NPCs, and if by some chance he gets a rare drop (SoX), it will be worth exponentially less. There is always the cap to consider; this is not an open-ended game as far as level is concerned, and you *can* reach your goal.

It might then seem prudent to play the entire game with no mastery gap, using skills from only one tree, and farming all the necessary SP for your capped build once you reach the cap. However, there remains the problem of grinding quickly and safely; of equipping your character with the skills required to be able to grind at a reasonable speed. Also, the aforementioned ability to do things other than grinding at each stage of your character's life. You'll have a much easier time doing a 1 star trade at level 25 with no gap than you would with a 9 gap.

In the end, all these factors must be considered. Silkroad Online is a means to and end, which is to say that it has a purpose; but that purpose is not merely to have a strong end-game character. The purpose is to have fun. Some people desire so much to be the strongest, to have a perfect end-game character, that reaching that becomes their obsession, but is that fun? Entertaining? Or is it merely satisfying? And if they cannot be the strongest, are they still satisfied? If you have no satisfaction and no fun, there is no more reason to play. The only things that keep people here after they have exhausted satisfaction and fun are inertia, addiction, boredom, escapism, or feelings of loyalty or debt (probably to guildmates). I recommend that for most people, the most fun is likely to be had when you can grind reasonably well (choice of enemy and choice of build are as important here as choice of mastery gap!) and job reasonably well. It is not as important to PvP well until you get into 4x at the very least, and most people are not there yet. Those who are, should have been playing long enough to consider what I've said with their own experience, and make their own conclusions.

Personally, I would avoid a 9 gap like the plague until you reach level 64 and your end-game weapon (until the cap raise). I don't recommend farming at 16 unless you have an extraordinary tolerance for tedium and a seal weapon. Even then, I would discourage it because it excludes you from participating in most guild activities, which is good neither for you nor your guild. If you limit your skills to just the essentials, you can get enough SP with a 0 gap for a main tree at your level and a sub tree ~10 levels behind. A 2 gap will give you enough SP for both trees to be maxed (2 behind, of course), or for one maxed and one 10 behind but more skills used. And it's perfectly reasonable to keep a higher gap at lower levels, because you have lots of quests at those levels and they go by quickly. When you get to levels without quests, raise your mastery to get through them faster; when you get to levels with more quests, let your mastery stay low for a bit. And if you get super bored, raise a single mastery up to 0 gap without getting any skills, rush several levels, then use the cursed heart quest to go back to whatever gap you like while you explore a new area of the map.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:58 pm 
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wow nice thouough answer and that is by far the longest post I've ever seen you make... and you owe me a recipe for a tasty cake.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:08 pm 
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I tend to avoid anything but extreme gaps(7+, or 0), because with a 2-3 level gap, you still get crap for SP, but now, your EXP gained sucks too.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:30 pm 
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Shiz: That only makes sense if crap = anything that's not extreme.

hellsharpt: How about two recipes for tasty cakes that are in season?
http://cake.allrecipes.com/az/BlueberryBuckle.asp
http://cake.allrecipes.com/az/PeachCakeII.asp
I've tried them both and they are very much Bakemaster Approved (TM).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:32 pm 
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2 level gap=120 sp.
3 level gap=130 sp. Not enough.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:45 pm 
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Shiz, I took the time to clearly state my position at length for the sake of people who might find it of use, and I'd appreciate it if you'd either respond in kind or stop shitting all over my thread. Comments like "crap for SP", "EXP gained sucks", and "not enough" are not helpful.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:42 pm 
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Its personal opinion. Its just not enough to me, but it may be plenty for those who don't have many extra trees.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:59 pm 
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obviously you wouldnt level with a 9 gap, thats jst crazy, you 9 gap to farm and de level, and you level with 2-4 gap :)

in my opinion

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:32 pm 
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You're missing the point, Shiz. It's not about getting more SP or less SP. If you have your build planned out then there's a set amount of SP you need, an exact number required to get all your skills. The question is when to get it. You'll never stop gaining SP, even on a 0 gap.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:26 am 
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I play with a gap only when I feel like spending more time on the same lvl, or when I have a specific goal.
Most of the time I played with 1-2 lvl gap, and I had a few 4 to 5 gap sessions.

For example : I played from 60 to 63 with 4-5-5 gap, because I had a good weapon (sword 60+5 good damages and a.rating) and a nice mob to kill (yetis). And I wanted to raise heuksal for the passive, and improve my swords skills.
That allows me to be better in job/pvp when I want to have some fun.
Spending this time made me gain some gold to buy my 8th degree stuff too.

It's all about motivation. Npw I'm tired of this and I'll try to reach the cap with a low gap. But I don't regret the time spent on the yetis.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:00 pm 
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Bakemaster wrote:
You're missing the point, Shiz. It's not about getting more SP or less SP. If you have your build planned out then there's a set amount of SP you need, an exact number required to get all your skills. The question is when to get it. You'll never stop gaining SP, even on a 0 gap.


That's why people sp farm in lvl 16 so that they can leave a 0 gap and has the most potential killing ability at his level. But i was wondering what determines sp gain? Monster lvl or difference between my level and monster level?

If sp gain is determined from monster lvl, i rather sp farm at lvl 61


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:44 pm 
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You'll gain about the same amount of SXP from a white mob when you're 70 as you would from a white mob when you're 16.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:55 pm 
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vulperin wrote:
That's why people sp farm in lvl 16 so that they can leave a 0 gap and has the most potential killing ability at his level.


I think most people farm at Lv16 (for a character other than their first--in most situations) for the following reasons:

1. Bandit mobs spawn the fastest.
2. A SoX weapon that rocks (especially a SOM+3 bow) that most Lv40-ish for their first character can easilty afford.
3. Can farm with the bow skills kept at Lv7---exactly enough for farming, and can be de-leveled easily w/o hurting the pocket if you're aiming for weapon mastery other than bow.
4. (for non-first chars) Can park your Lv40 & up char nearby just in case TG spawns next to ur noob char (lol).

@bakemaster
how do u suggest for chars (esp nukers) that *really* need more than 2 trees at the same time? like ice for the buff and passive, then light for the pierce, with fire as primary and really needing the SSS and GSP asap...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:38 pm 
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You can level up a nuker with a 0 rank mastery gap easily.

http://www.silkroadforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=9878

READ. It may change the way you think.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:30 pm 
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cometfall wrote:
how do u suggest for chars (esp nukers) that *really* need more than 2 trees at the same time? like ice for the buff and passive, then light for the pierce, with fire as primary and really needing the SSS and GSP asap...

The only reason you would need all this asap is for PvP. You can level just fine as a nuker without any cold mastery or spear skills, you just have to be smart about what you grind and when you do your quests so that you are efficient and don't end up two-nuking mobs that you could nuke+shout or nuke+whack. You can farm some SP for those other trees at 42, 52, 60 or 64. BUT, if you really really want multiple trees up to date, you're going to have to do some farming or level with a considerable gap. It will make you PvP better against people your level, but you will still lose to the person with one or two trees who outleveled you and is in next degree equipment.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:35 pm 
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LMAO.
Ofcourse the -9 outweighs the -8, **** the calculations. If your gonna farm sp do it right, not -5/-6/-7 etc

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:52 pm 
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Sigh. I spend a good hour ordering my thoughts to clearly explain my point of view and still I get replies written in twenty seconds with only an unsubstantiated opinion.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:57 pm 
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lol, that will always happen :P

sadly i almost only reply on things i know a bit about, about this i know dipshit. i yet have to farm with a 9 gap. But i am just to damm inpatient to farm. ^^

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:25 am 
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I have a fireblader (pure str) and with him i never had 0 gap. My parcial build settings (at lv 40) need 13k sp, so i always leveled with a 4~5 gap. I am currently at lvl 26 and my masteries are far behind, at lvl 20.

I had my masteries at lvl 19 until lvl 24. I choose to stay more time behind lvl 24, because i was pissed at my blade and wanted to buy a Seal of Star one, so, i farmed both SP and the gold.

When i got my blade i thought "Well, lets go leveling" and leveled my masteries (force, fire, lightning, blade - probably too much) to 20 and got the nice passives, and all skills i needed in all trees. Ghostwalk, knockdown, imbue, resurrection, all of them got pumped one level. I spent more than 700 points (i had 2000).

I saw that and concluded the 2k sp wouldnt be enough, if i leveled them 2 or more, i wouldn't have any sp left. So, i'm farming right now. And plus, i get to make money for my lvl 32 sos blade.

I'd like your advices, am i doing right? Am i exagerating? Thanks.


ps.: sorry for any eventual errors, english is my second language.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:54 pm 
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sooo wat ur saying is that its good to lvl up rather then spend all ur time sp farming. Then get the extra skills u want by farming at cap? hmm if thats wat ur saying, then ill try it XD.

-thanks for hte advice

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:55 pm 
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Cham,

Thanks again for the advice. We talked some more in chat and I ended up doing a 6 gap for level 42. I am half way thru lvl 42 and have 22,000 sp banked. I think that I went into lvl 42 with 19,000 sp. I will probably stay at a lvl 6 or 7 gap all the way to 70. I really appreciate the time you spent putting together your post.

Thanks,

Jab
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:08 pm 
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Its really sad that this post got flamed so bad. It was a fantastic read. Ultimately it is exactly the same conclusion I have come to about this game, I am 0 gapping and just lvling my soul spear and ghost petal with fire about 10 lvls behind till 64 then farming with 6 gap so i can have my 58 soul spear

Anyway great read, thanks


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:07 pm 
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There no flaming here. Only people who speak without thinking.

I hate to bring the botting issue into this nicely written thread but
@arretjescake: why the hell would you care? Not like you're playing.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:34 am 
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I completely agree that it's so much easier to go through the game on a 4-5 level gap. And then farm at 70. I haven't done it yet and I'm nowhere near that level, but it seems like it'd be the most enjoyable and it's the path I'm taking :)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:47 am 
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well... jus want to share what i did
i really want to farm a lot of SXP but its my 1st char and got my SOS16bow at lvl18 and dont have plans to farm at bandit den so i sold it for a 24SOSbow ^_^. from that on i've been lvling with a 8-7gap with 6trees maxed to lvl 25, im lvl32 btw(ima str cold archer). ive been doin fine... but i lvl very slow. id rather do this than stay at bandits den for months. i have 16k+++ sp right now. but im also havin plans of farming at bandits den if i get my hands on a SOM16bow :P.
(i get 200+sxp per monster so 2kills = 1sp)

so...?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:21 am 
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Bakemaster wrote:
Sigh. I spend a good hour ordering my thoughts to clearly explain my point of view and still I get replies written in twenty seconds with only an unsubstantiated opinion.



Im sorry Bakemaster. And for the record my post only took about...15. seconds.. If I were to end it here...

I didn't understand a one of your mathematic calculations. That is probably why im in my first semester of 9th grade Algebra, yet, I am already im my second semester of 11th Grade English. Maybe it's because I am bad with math. All I know is that as soon as I saw all the numerics I nearly cried. I tried reading it and couldn't get it. Maybe I should try again. *sigh*.


Oh well.

For the record, I spent about 5 minutes on this post. 3 or so minutes of that watching Jeopardy. Lol.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:38 am 
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senapanaga wrote:
Bakemaster wrote:
Sigh. I spend a good hour ordering my thoughts to clearly explain my point of view and still I get replies written in twenty seconds with only an unsubstantiated opinion.



Im sorry Bakemaster. And for the record my post only took about...15. seconds.. If I were to end it here...

I didn't understand a one of your mathematic calculations. That is probably why im in my first semester of 9th grade Algebra, yet, I am already im my second semester of 11th Grade English. Maybe it's because I am bad with math. All I know is that as soon as I saw all the numerics I nearly cried. I tried reading it and couldn't get it. Maybe I should try again. *sigh*.


Oh well.

For the record, I spent about 5 minutes on this post. 3 or so minutes of that watching Jeopardy. Lol.


Bahah sorry to get off topic but I'm in the same boat as you dude. Just started Junior year today, and I'm loving the Freshman math...for the third time :banghead:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:11 pm 
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cl0aked wrote:
And plus, i get to make money for my lvl 32 sos blade.


This is one thing I've never quite understood. Why do people buy SOS items (I DO understand SOM and SUN), if not to resell them for profit? Aren't these just the same as regular items with +5/? A lvl 24 +5 blade would be much cheaper than a lvl 24 SOS blade, but wouldn't it have the same stats? Only difference I can tell is the SOS glows. Is it just for bragging rights, aka "look at my shiny weapon!"?

I mean I'd love to get some SOS items, but I think I'd rather wait for drops unless there's a benefit to SOS that I don't know about.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:49 pm 
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You can also +5 a sos item.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:55 pm 
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matronyx wrote:
You can also +5 a sos item.


or +9 a SoSun :)

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