Silkroad Online Forums

Ok, Well in your original post there were 1157 words, 5585 characters and you said you typed this in 3 minutes and 47 seconds and this equals just over 5 words a second (305 per min)and also that would be 24.6 characters per second.

Now from that I can conclude that you're either, a robot, a mutant or you just lie and although I would love to call you a mutant you are just lying. You cannot type that at 305 words per min, even if you had everything written down exactly as you wanted it before hand.

So please explain to me your maths.

Someone needs to...

RRREEEEEEEEEEEEECCCCAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNTT!!!!!

It has been always this conclusion, thats why i stay legit

Not write, READ
Reading is the key.

WOAH, lol thx for clarifying. Its early in the Morning, I don't feel like doing maths.

23 Characters per 6 seconds, someone do the math. I cba and just threw down a short time because I type fast, and when your typing fast it feels like a relatively short time.

EDIT: Damn My breakfast ain't ready yet
Maths: 23 characters per 6 seconds, 48 words per minute, 1157 words so

1157/48 = 24 minutes, thats a long ass time to be typing stuff I need to get out of this house, 24 minutes typing

they provide your weapons at a cheaper price then you would sell them for.

In exchange for what? More goldbots that can infest the server? The costs outweigh the benefits.

man, all of this talk kind of makes me want to reinstall sro and try it again, but im too lazy and i know i wont be able to login xD

@Barotix - damn right man, no better way to argue against bots with simple logic lol


Note to self: 4 pages worth of posts is alot to read all at once...

(sorry If Im missing something here... but)



COLLECTIVELY lost 7. There are 4 farmers. 7/4 = less than 2 (1.75, which means a 0.25 gain). Don't forget, this is assuming every farmer is doing the same thing. Throw in some legits who dont bot, and that 0.25 grows to a larger number. Heck, just get 4 more bots than everyone else and you get 1.00, while people who don't bot take the hit(s).

Its kinda unfortunate, but Botters will always have the upper hand on Legit players. (That is, unless you play the game 24/7 and have no life like me )

Hmm, I think I know what people are missing.

The Farm can only sustain a maximum of 12 sheep, therefore each farmer can only have 3 sheep before they no longer gain anything from the sheep. Your idea is the equivalent of adding more sheep which means less grass which means weaker sheep which means less profit for the farmer.

They share the land, but they don't share the sheep. The land takes a grand total damage of 7 and since the land is shared among the farmers they all Lose 7. The individual farmer can only gain 2 points while losing none and doing 1/4 AKA .25 damage to the other farmers. After gaining the maximum of two all the farmer does is hurt others and himself because he shares the land. The reasons it works out this way is because the land has a maximum sustainable number of sheep, just as each silk road server and grind area has a maximum sustainable amount of players. Hence why it is Ludicrous to fill the servers with Gold bots and bot in the process.

all I see in this thread is the few legits left in this game jacking each other off, telling each other everything will be OK if they just keep up the pointless fight a bit longer

Yes, but having 2 (or more) weaker sheep is still greater than having only 1 healthy one. *explains*


Green = Random spawning patches of grass
Red = your sheep

Alright. Lets say a large portion of land (perhaps the space between W. Hotan and the entrance to Karakoram) is represented by the square. The 4 patches of grass represented could appear basically anywhere in the entire space. By having only one sheep, yes, you will get a substantial amount of gold/drops. However, at any given time there are 4 patches of grass moving around. By increasing the number of sheep you have in that area, you, not only decrease the amount of time needed to travel from patch of grass to patch of grass, but you will also get maybe 3-4 times the amount of gold/drops you were previously - because each sheep could be going after a different patch of grass.

Sure there comes a point at which you have too many sheep for the patches of grass, and that would be comparable to the "weak sheep" analogy. (But keep in mind the number of sheep you would need to make it less beneficial... just think of this video.)

Also, yes, the land is taking a hit of 7 (land either being server traffic or grinding space.) However, the server traffic is going to be pegged at 3,500 whether I have 1 sheep in, or 10.

The server being crowded and grinding space being taken up is not the only damaging factor bots bring to the ball game, and having 2 weaker sheep is not better than having one healthy one. One healthy sheep will bring in far more revenue, if you add to many sheep there will be no more grass to feed said sheep. You will "kill" the land slowly, but it will be done. Just as the current community is killing the game, make a comparison between the early 07 community and the current one, hell if you really want to go back compare pure 60 cap to decaying 80 cap. I already covered this in my original post when I typed "there is an illusion of greater gain". Note* Illusion, it appears as if adding sheep will only help you, but the end result will be.

No Land.
No Sheep.

Now the consequences pertaining to SRO in regards to the botting problem are different and there are multiple variables involved.

The gist of this thread is.

The damage done by everyone that bots while using cracked gold bots and every gold buyer > the gains you as a person get.

There are obvious quick advantages to cheating, but the consequences (disregarding bans) to you and everyone else are so high. Most botters don't care and just want 80 NAO, I have always asked this question and have yet to get an adequate answer, but why ~ why rush?

So far one of my post contains a major flaw, but no one has noticed it ye \o/ XD. I kept every thing in the original post very simple (to prevent confusion), and I think it would aid to read my follow up post.

The land is:

The In game economy
The Community (including botters legits)
The company
The New Comers

We take the damage, everyone ~ the bots may not see it now. Their to busy living their lie of false legitimacy, but the damage they have helped cause, and still are, will be made evident soon enough.

EDIT:
Saying "having two weak sheep is better than having one healthy one" is equivalent to saying; "having two silk buying botters is better than having one silk buying Legit"

^My edit has the same flaw as one of my other post ~ argue it

I believe you are incorrect on that point:



Lets take the analogy to the extreme, so many sheep there is no space in between them. YES, you will have many, MANY weaker sheep, but your net gain between all of them will be greater than if you had just 1, or 4, or 10. At any time, there are those 4 patches of grass roaming around - as soon as you kill one, another appears in the same instant somewhere else... randomly. Having just one sheep takes time to roam around and go from patch to patch, but adding more only increases the potential gain because less and less time is needed to travel to each patch.

So basically... less time = more money.



I never disagreed with you that there would be bad consequences to this, but the bad consequences aren't seen by me, I have my 3,499 sheep army, and my 1 legit ;D

(LOL Analogy)

In SRO less time = less money. You're disregarding the limit on the land, If there are more sheep than the land can sustain the sheep will die due to undernourishment, now will you buy a malnourished week sheep? The best sheep were the most expensive, weak sheep have little meat to offer therefore they are less profitable. You add another sheep you weaken all sheep (not just yours so everyone gets screwed over).

You're at the market. There are other grazers there that share a different commons, they didn't overgraze and they thought of how to help each other rather than just helping one self. A man comes to buy sheep he has a choice now.

One Weak sheep or One Strong Robust Sheep? This is a whole nother analogy in its self. You make it as if the farmers are sharing the sheep and there is unlimited land, may I point to the "dust bowl" of the mid western united states for an example of what over grazing can do T.T

This explains why Asian countries pwn Western countries Culturally. Conformist XD

make love not war




which post are u referring to from epicwin and what are you talking about?

Inside comment; not important.

Nice explanation.
Too bad it ends up in deaf ears, since those who should be concerned 1. don't read SRF or 2. won't understand or 3. won't care or 4. will probably not be bothered about the land owner complaining the grass is lacking as long as at least one shepherd pays the acre tax or 5. a mix of all those.
It's a "me, myself and I" community for the most part

maybe people bot because after lvl 30-40 it gets REALLY hard to lvl just a single lvl... The quests are repetitive we spend the whole time doing nothing but press 1234 1234 1234
I never botted on iSRo and didnt buy silks (because I refused to pay for what other people get for free)

So I'm proud to say I dont play SRO

so? That gives them a valid excuse to cheat? As they like to say; "if you can't handle the game quit", they referring to botters now that they have virtually destroyed every pedestal of Legitimacy, I have no sympathy for someone that starts cheating (no matter what the venue) simply because they could no longer handle problems. Like the girl who sleeps with her professors to get a passing grade while her contemporaries try their hardest, some succeed and some fail. In the end the person who works the hardest wins the race, the person who is most privileged wins the race. Hard Work and Fantastic circumstances will put you ahead, but cheating... cheating should never be an option. Never such a deplorable act... should never be an option.

XD legits are the best but we can never defeat the bots

Doesnt get hard to grind at 30-40.
You can still manage a lvl a day at those lvls.

Great post by barotix, look for ariadne and his MMORPG addiction work, it goes in dept and all over the MMORPG and what it has to offer a human mind.

http://www.nickyee.com/hub/addiction/home.html

download the pdf and use it for you good!

I jsut want more ppl to chek out the link in the post above.

I had to quote this, look at his sig Talk about ..... hippocrits. viewtopic.php?p=1079589#p1079589

Oh and another think to you ..... hippocrits that bot and lie about it. I'm going to find you, and if your GF/Wife is hot, I'm going to bang them. With you watching. And they will be filming it while laughing in your face, because they love my big ..........



too much?

Barotix, Greetings~!

I would agree with your results and appreciate the information (and education) about Social Traps.
Props and cud-o's to you.

I couldn’t help but notice the similarities to Game Theory and “The Prisoner Dilemma”.
To me, what you are attempting to do with your math is better conceived with Iterated Prisoner Dilemma models or, to coin a phrase, 'two dimensional Social Traps'.
When looking at impact of group size in dual social grouping models, and especially when decision rule is used (like we are attempting to do on SRF) larger groups perform better in moving from uncoop to coop because larger groups reduce uncertainty in the random process of strategy selection.

In other words, cooperative styles amongst ‘legits’ of all flavors are necessary.
Driving a certain few ‘bots’ from a single server might be nice (and certainly is good for the ego and bragging rights, maybe) but it does little or nothing to relieve the overall problem.

Intro to economics classes can touch on Game Theory and “TPD” (The Prisoner Dilemma) which is a very simple game, actually invented by Albert Tucker, and goes something like this:

The interesting thing about the scenario is that there’s a temptation to “defect” (rat on your partner) but it only works (pays off for the first) if the other guy doesn’t do it.
If both defect, the result for both players is worse than if they had both “cooperated” (remained silent), but better for SRF, of course.
In other words, selfish opportunism screws things up for both players.

We see this in action here on SRF almost every week that I’ve observed / watched.
Robert Axelrod’s specialty was the ‘iterated prisoners’ dilemma’, where two or more players play multiple rounds of the basic “TPD”, remembering history and trying to maximize their results according to divergent strategies.

The bottom line is in the long term (and as you have stated) selfish opportunistic (cheater / bot / liar) strategies are not optimal.
The best strategies over the long term are those that encourage mutual cooperation, not pure competition.
This ‘spirit’ of coop will also be of use when comparing various flavors of ‘legit’ and their modes of ‘shunning’. They are the best strategies because they give the biggest payoff. The bigger the coalition, the greater the solidarity, the better for all legits everywhere.

The problem with both models is that we are assuming ‘zero-sum’ models, that it is a system where participant’s gain or loss is exactly balanced by the losses or gains of the other participants.

Here’s a real life example of TPD:

Edward Spellman posed the question.
“Ask Marilyn” answered.
(Marilyn vos Savant is listed in the Guinness Book of World Records Hall of Fame for the highest IQ)¹


Marilyn’s answer, which has the stranger playing twice as many tails as heads and winning $1 in six plays, is wrong .IF. the opponent elects to play a pure strategy of tails all the time!

In that case, the stranger and her opponent break even. Given the beautiful stranger’s strategy of playing twice as many tails as heads, what she wins depends on her opponent’s strategy. If the opponent plays heads and tails randomly, 50–50, the stranger will win $1 for every six plays, as Marilyn stated. Nothing in the problem as stated, however, would stop the opponent from playing tails all the time. In this case, they would break even (the stranger’s winnings, on average, would be 2 + 2 – 1 – 1 – 1 – 1 = 0).



Anybody wanting to do more research? You could explore the boundaries of Axelrod’s results in the IPD. Under certain conditions, Tit For Tat or its variants seem optimal. Where are the boundaries with regard to ratio of cooperators, defectors, and others? What others? Make a guess, then try to defend it. Alternatively, you could try something similar with another of the four classic games - Deadlock, Stag Hunt, or Chicken.

Another one of Axelrod’s results was that the only time opportunistic strategies do work is when there’s a high percentage of naive always-cooperate players for them to fleece. "Neutral Legits" are indeed part of the problem. So there you have it. From very basic game theory to real-life economics, to SRO and SRF. Social Traps and Game Theory runs the gauntlet. The difference is the simple matter of "Trust". It is a significant difference.

Lots more information found at: The Heretical Press <~~~ It's not just math-n-games-n-stuff, there's stuff about sex there too

Again, props and cud-o's to you Barotix.
~Grandpa

____________________________________
credits: ¹Parade Magazine, March 31, 2002
²Francis J. Vasko is a Professor of Mathematics at Kutztown University in Kutztown, Pennsylvania. Dennis D. Newhart is a research consultant with International Steel Group in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

I'm glad I didn't spend my time hand grinding in this game now afterwards.

Alota writing there =P

@Grandpa, I'm glad you brought up game theory. I really did not want to edit my original post with more examples, btw game theory is the same as social trap. "social Trap" is just the psychology term.

this is soooo flawed