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I and pr0klobster were testing and discussing things related to "healing formula" on this guide: viewtopic.php?p=1494975 and we asked cin to transfer our posts from there and start a new topic so we'd stop flooding the guide with things which are not really relevant for the guide. We're just going to post the results there, as it's the only actually relevant part to the guide.

If you intend on contributing here, only post if you can backup what you say with solid evidence, or if you are sure it's relevant.

Some of the first below replies may not make much sense, that's because they were moved from another topic.

Well, I look at it this way: Healing is an attack. Just a negative attack on X player, instead of taking away hit points, it adds them. So imho the "attack" does use weapon mag attack in addition to int.

If INT and Mag balance had nothing to do with healing (or attacks) then everyone would go str cleric. My pure bard at level 66 does more damage than my hybrid did at 68, with a lesser harp, so I'm just guessing there, can't recall the old thread where people were trying to figure out the formula. Magical reinforce should have something to do with it.

Meh, I'm getting off topic here. Anyway, no you can't mana cycle yourself if you're buffing, the str/int buffs fall off and you'd also have to recast the phys/mag def buffs on yourself after switching.

Mainly, I'm trying to understand if there is any reason for a 1:2 hybrid besides survivability. If int does not impact your heals, then hybrid makes more sense, but that doesn't jibe with the str attack formula.

Well, I'm not sure, but I really don't think that anything other than weapon magical attack increases healing, but as I can't prove it, neither am sure, let's just leave it like this. If int or whatever does however affect healing, I'm pretty sure it's not by a huge amount. Also, I'm pretty sure I can say that healing is not calculated like normal damage, so you can't compare both.


+1 I had a warrior/cleric and it did fine at healing too.

I may have to research this, have to look at the old threads if I can find them. If not I have an int char with cleric sub @ 40, should be able to compare heals to a str char with cleric sub around the same level and see if it makes any appreciable difference. I know mag attack affects heals but thought that mag reinforce and int affected it to some degree too, not sure where I remember seeing it.

If int/mag balance/reinforce don't impact heals then a str char at level 80 with cleric skills @ 40 should heal the same as a lvl 40 cleric, assuming both have similar gear.

Anyway, I'm off topic so if a mod would like to split this discussion off from the main topic that would be great.

Just have them use the same healing skill at the same level and using the same weapon.

That's the plan

int cleric heals way more then str cleric

I never noticed any difference. How are you so sure about this?

fairly sure, i was cleric for a long time, and str cleric even with a bard couldn't heal enough for massive lures, compare the healing cycle from and str and a healing cycle from and int, you'll tell the differance. Your build seams like enough int to get the job done. The same is true for mana cycle.

I cannot really argue against that because I can not prove it, but I was a STR cleric and I didn't actually notice difference. Few variables I see: Maybe the other STR clerics just didn't have their skills at the same level as yours (not maxed)? Were they using cleric rods which weren't as good as yours? Faith passive? Did they change weapon after casting Cycle?

Also, another thing that bugs me about this, it nowhere in the description says that anything other than Weapon Magical Attack affects healing. So it'd be a hidden effect or something? So, following this "hidden" logic, that would make chinese force skills heal more if you are INT, which does in fact not happen. You heal exactly the amount mentioned in the skill description if I recall it correctly, as the skill description doesn't mention anything extra adding to HP recovery, and this would make the "hidden effect" thingy invalid, as it should apply for force healing as well. Anyways, it could be one more of joymax's mistakes, but I don't know. Absolute damage (warlock's traps; cleric's mortal recoveries; bard's tuning noise/sound; summarizing, any skill that doesn't mention "attack power" or "phy./mag. attack") doesn't vary according to int/str, why would heal?

Maybe it's the passives that a heavy armor doesn't get.

It all gets back to the damage formula. Two assumptions I'm making:

1. A heal is considered an attack
2. it is not only the mag. attack power of the weapon, but the magical reinforce (based on the damage formula thread that I remember)

We need someone to test. So we'd need something like an area with passive mobs - someplace they would do noticeable damage but not kill the cleric or the person you're testing on.

Then attack a single mob, get it attacking you, assess the dmg you're taking (turn off pots first), wait until your hp drops below a certain level (that only more than ONE of your heals will help) check the HP before and after the heal, and then repeat with a str cleric having the same level skills.

Does this methodology sound about right for testing?

Yeah sure, go ahead and try it, I'll be interested for the results ^^

I don't think that's true, because absolutes aren't considered damage either, but I agree that's a possibility.


If the magical reinforcement in fact goes into healing formula too, it still wouldn't appear as a difference between a STR healing and a INT healing, if they are using the same weapon, as INT/STR ain't directly related to magical reinforcement. If only magical attack and magical reinforcement affect healing, it still wouldn't vary according to INT/STR in my opinion.


Make the STR and the INT cleric wear exactly the same weapon, and it's all set. They don't even need to be on the same level, they just need to have exactly the same skills (it'd help if both healed while being naked - to prevent passive and blues bonuses) and be wearing exactly the same cleric rod.
We could also try this with chinese force healing skills by a INT and a STR, if your assumption of healing being considered an attack is correct, the heal of the INT would be higher using the same skill as the STR.

P.S.: I'm loving this debate with you. I'll see if I can test this with chinese characters soon.

Sorry for double posting, but I did a test with two chinese characters on eCSRO.

Pure INT: http://img256.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=intweap.jpg


Pure STR: http://img516.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=strweap.jpg


I could have taken more screenshots as I did it several times, but it was kinda tricky to get the screenshot of the exact healing amount as most of the time the natural regeneration (healing 2-3 HP) kicked in few ms before the screenshot, but I still could compare the healing amount, as I could see it before the natural regeneration, but most screenshots only 'recorded' after 1 regeneration tick. All times I did it the result was exactly the same as above, so I didn't see a reason to take and post any more screenshots. I still can do it if needed.

That's very interesting...now I am wondering if Euro's (and also, the Legend 2/3/4 update) changed the way heals are applied.

Very cool, preliminary Chinese testing (at least at a low level) does show that the heals are exactly the same.

Hmmm...I can probably replicate the healing tests tonight, I have a level 17 Euro cleric that I've been farming (pure int) with level 9 skills and can easily get a STR cleric up to level 9 skills. If they heal the same or very close (as healing may be a range on Euro's, not sure yet) then we have more data to reinforce this hypothesis.

Not very likely in my opinion, though it's possible.


Yup. Even with imbue damage at low lvls, which is very small, you can still notice a kind of 'huge' (%) difference between pure STR and pure INT's damage, so being at low levels is not really a problem in this case. Difference would be noticed, even if kind of small (as in imbue's case), if healing was affected by INT.


Agreed. Another possibility would be if healing varied according to character level, even though I think that's not likely to be true. I think it only varies according to the skill itself and (if it's european) the weapon. Ah, don't forget, have both characters using the same cleric rod.

Yep, I'll have them using an NPC cleric rod.

I really wonder if this discussion should be split off until we can confirm or deny what the heals do (if they function as an "attack").

I was wondering the same, but we'd need a mod to, if possible, move our posts to a new topic so we could discuss this somewhere else. I don't know who should we ask though, lol. I'll try PM'ing cin.

EDIT: The guide was split, we'll keep the discussion here now.

Darnit...first post got eaten, had to redo it all over again!

Anyway...screenies of the tests conducted tonight. Sorry, I didn't take pics of the str/int each character had, but I'm not going to skew the results, just want the truth.

Str npc rod


Str level 10 cleric, lvl 2 healing


Str before healing


Str after healing


int npc rod


int level 10 cleric skills, level 2 heal


int before healing


int after healing


As you can see the int heals 228, the str 177. Allowing for a few points of regen on either one (it is tough to get it RIGHT before regen) that still seems to show that ints heal more.

Another possibility is that level has an impact on healing, but that shouldn't be: a level 80 with lvl 10 skills should heal the same amount as a lvl 10.

Let me know what you think. I can always take more screens or do more testing.

Let me see:
Healing lvl 2
127 hp recovery
150% weapon magical attack reflect

Cleric rod Magical Attack power: 64 - 78

This would make the skill base healing be 223 - 244 HP.

The STR healed 177, the int 228.

The regeneration would benefit more the STR, because it has more HP, therefore as in this case the INT healed more than the STR, there really is no reason at all to worry about the natural regen.

So far, this is going against what I thought so far, making me believe what I thought is in fact wrong, and what you thought, correct. Even if weapon reinforcement somewhat was included in the formula, it'd make both heal at least over 240. It's kind of weird for me that the STR healed less than the minimum healing I stated, which included weapon magical attack power. Did you do that more times? Could you try it a few more times (maybe one or two more screenshots, if possible) and see if the healing varies, and how much +- it varies? It's possible that the STR healed near it's lower end of healing range, while the INT healed nearer to it's higher end, so doing it a few more times to see how it varies would clear this up. Btw, level the heavenly rage passive on the STR (not that I think that it changes anything, just dunno, as you have spare SP you could add it, as it seems it's the only difference in skills between both).

- Off to sleep.

Yeah, that was one discrepancy I did notice, so I went back after I posted the screens and leveled that up to 2...the STR healed 177 again.

I'll try it a few more times to confirm though.

ok, after testing it a few more times, there appears to be some type of range...out of 4 tries, the STR healed 177, but once it came out to 189 - could be regen. Still not as much as the INT though.

edit: added pic of the stats on the char

2nd test

after


3rd test


after



stats

weapon magic attack reflect means the characters actual magic attack range
you showed the int healing more and thats why, its not necessarily anything to do with reinforce as much as your characters attack power

Chinese heals are absolute heals, and they state an exact amount of hp they heal and will always heal the same int or str

On one of the screenshots you posted the STR healed 174, and then the 177 amount could be after 1 regeneration tick. If the healing varies, it looks like it's by a pretty small amount, which is kind of weird, as if healing formula actually used any kind of magical attack range, it'd vary more, at least more noticeably. Still that may be because it's low level characters.

I recently noticed that HP sucking skills from warlock also vary according to STR or INT, and their description is pretty much exactly the same as healing: a absolute and magical attack % reflect.

I don't think there's any further testing to be done, for me it's enough already.

Conclusions I got to:

1. "Weapon Magical Attack Power % Reflect" in fact does vary according to your character's INT points. What I think it means exactly (would need more tests with characters at different levels and using different builds to be certain) is that it'll take your characters base magical attack, multiply it by your character's magical balance (which is a percentage), and sum it to the healing skill base amount.
2. The above makes all euro HP healing, MP healing and HP sucking vary according to INT and magical weapon.
3. If there's no "Weapon Magical Attack Power % Reflect" in the skill description, then it'll work as a absolute skill (in the case of force chinese skills or euro skills). Nothing outside changes it except for the skill itself.
4. I'm almost 100% sure that the character's level itself does not directly change the healing amount, if it did, in my opinion it'd be % based, so the level 17 character would heal approx. 7% more than the level 10, which didn't happen in this case. Also, imagine if level 100 characters healed 100% more, lol. There are some other reasons (which I don't recall right now) to support the idea that level doesn't directly change this.
5. Healing/sucking (with "Weapon Magical Attack Power % Reflect") vary by a sort of small amount when compared to the total amount.
6. The amount incorporated by the "Weapon Magical Attack Power % Reflect" doesn't vary according to rough defense.

What do you think about these? Anything else?

Nah, this pretty much confirms that INTs do heal more than STR chars. The only question would be at higher levels, how much the range varies.

Yeah, that was what I was thinking.


I say that at high levels INTs heal or suck HP by about 2x the amount STRs do, if they use similar weapons. This is just another guess I'm making, so it's very likely to be wrong.

Is there anything else? Anyone?

If not, then I'll soon post the results or smtg at the guide.

If we could find a pure INT 60-80 cleric and a STR 60-80 with sub cleric willing to post screenshots, we could see how much it varies at higher levels. I'm still thinking it is going to be substantially higher for an INT.

I'd test with my level 82 cleric, but I put 15-18 points of STR in (isn't that ironic), so it might skew the results a little bit.

Yes, as I've said, I guess that at high levels INTs heal or suck HP by about 2x the amount STRs do.


Those 15-18 points into STR are going to change pretty much nothing, I'm pretty sure of that. No need to worry about it. We'd need a lvl 80+ STR cleric to compare the results then.