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Exactly, but you're still assuming that ANYONE that has morals will say "this is bad."

"This is bad. If you have morals" is the EXACT same thing as saying "My ideals are right, and anyone else can shove theirs where the sun don't shine."

I'm not even going to bother answering the attempt at making it seem as if I have no problem with rape.


Again, my point was that YOU DO NOT KNOW if animals can choose or not. It's perfectly reasonable that they have the power to choose, but they see no problem with it.


Yes, you do. Without a very large society, there's no need for a government. Animals would have no need to form a government until they get to the point where it's hard to stay organized and work together.

Again though, you're also assuming that animals are unable to choose- who's to say that they just don't see the benefit in having a government compared to relative anarchy?



Which confirms exactly what I was talking about. You think that humans are above all else in the universe, regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I don't know if there's ever been life on Mars, although it's plenty possible that that was our first home. I do know that, given a universe as large as we've got, it's impossible that sentient life of some form only exists on a single planet. The much better question here isn't "Is there other life out there?" but "How long will it take to discover it?"

I don't know if UFOs are real or fake- I personally don't take them that seriously. I don't know if aliens have ever visited Earth. On one hand, it would explain some things, but on the other I find it rather unlikely that they'd just pack up and leave if they had.

I don't pretend to know everything, because I don't need to know everything to feel comfortable in life. I look forward to the future, and new discoveries. People that are afraid of the unknown are the same ones that make up stories to tell their kids when they don't know. I met a kid once who was convinced that the reason the sky was blue in the day was because it was reflecting the ocean, and black at night because it was reflecting the roads. He had to formulate this in his head, because nothing else made sense to him, so instead of just leaving it as a question, he had to formulate an incredibly stupid idea to explain it.


I have, but do you really think a human is above a bobcat to the point where it could kill the bobcat without the gun, which is a tool? Monkeys make and use tools too, so you're again ignoring that animals can do much of the same things we can.



Exactly, but you wouldn't have that instinct if you didn't know that getting hit by something traveling at speed could kill you. In a very simple way, bumping into things as children trains us to avoid having other things hit us.


I didn't say it was the same, however the similarities are definitely there. I would explain it, but the only way you wouldn't already have heard them is pure ignorance, so it's not worth my time.


No, it's not. Unless you trust what Philip Moris has to say about smoking, in which case you're just plain easy to fool.


Uh-huh, and what makes humans so much different than animals? Of course humans aren't exactly like any specific animal, just as no animals are like each other. Rats are unlike dogs, but I think you'd agree that they're both very much animals.


Wrong. It shows that humans fear what they do not know. If look at any religion, they almost always have some sort of creation story, some sort of purpose to life, and some sort of life after death. People want to know how they got here. I, personally, like Big Bang, Primordial Soup, and evolutionary theories, but like everything else, they have their problems. I'm not saying that's definitely how we came to be, but it's a lot more likely than some mystery force.

After that, religion teaches what's right and wrong; be it for the benefit of society or for whoever invented it. The bible itself is a great example of this. "Kids, behave, or you'll spend all of eternity in a giant lake of fire!" -- how is that really any different from any number of superstitions and fairy tales?

Again, nobody is saying that everyone has it, just that not all humans are able to control themselves like you claim. Again though, until you can show that animals are unable to choose if they want to mate or not, your point is moot. Think about it, what benefit does refraining from sex have for an animal? They haven't put millions of dollars of research into STDs, they have no qualms about having kids, and their parents never told them that their bodies are evil and they should be ashamed of themselves for doing the natural thing to do.

Pigs, some species of apes and humans are the only animals that enjoy sex..

Feba, you....are....my...god!

lol

had to get that out, I always appreciate someone who can pose a good argument, and you are definitely one of those people
I'd love to speak with you on msn, add me =]


you forgot dolphins and some species of bats ><

I wasn't sure about Dolphins, but I didn't know about bats as well LOL

bats are one of the homosexual animals as well lol
I forgot the others though

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OIcrCZQkS ... ed&search=
sorry had to post this

And I'll restate that just because there's something humans do (not that I can really think of anything) that animals don't doesn't mean that humans are better than said creatures.

That said, yep, animals can get kinkah too. The biggest difference between animals and humans is that animals are content with what they've got, but humans are constantly trying to make things better.

oh wow
I havent laughed that hard in a long time thanks =]

I love Ricky Gervais..

Firstly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersexuality

yeah read it cause it occurs in males as well as females don't question my info if i decide to use it it must be true

Secondly
As you so proved yourself forming a government is not a sign of higher intelligence....a society of ants have a productivity rate that far exceeds anything human can output...also a society of ants has never and will never be subject to civil war mostly because ants have achieved a lvl of fairness and equality that even ppl strive for...a society thats completely united in every way shape and form with no one receiveing special treatment...even the queen only receives the amount of food and comfortability because it will help her to produce more eggs.

Meanwhile you can look at human history and not find a single form of government that has lasted ore than 200 years without internal conflicts...

Thirdly

To think that humans are the only sentient life form in the universe s just stupid. Earth has climates and conditions that range to almost every extreme and in all those climates we can find life....from exteme pressure to extreme cold to think that no other planet in the universe can house these conditions is just foolish...

Etc...ly

You keep making arguments that are based on the animal and in fact the intelligence of a particular animal. It not like humans don't get hit by trains accidentally. Every year at my old school Septa ( a train company) showed us a video warning of of course hundreds of teenagers die from getting hit by trains people get hit my cars on accident or because of slow reflexes there are very few animals who willingly get hit by anything...

Continued...

RELIGION IS NOT A SIGN OF INTELLIGENCE OR SUPERIORITY. It is in fact a a giant lack of confidence. DO NOT INCLUDE BUDDHISM its not a religion its a way of life. If you look at animal behavior you will find that while they do believe in a higher power.....they ALL answer to nature. They ALL feel nature around them more strongly than any human. They ALL base there entire lives off of nature. Nature is there way of life. They respect it, they nurture it, they acknowledge it is a force out of their control. You will see ants flooding out of there hills when rain is approaching. You will notice that wolves don't abundantly kill certain herbivores so that they have something to continue to eat away at the arbor. Animals live with nature and seek there whole lives to become one with it. They do not fear death like people do...that is not to say they don't fear dying for in some cases it can end horribly.

But you don't see creatures all around you so afraid of death that they would envision a life after death just to have something to look forward to. Unless your looking at ppl that is. Animals realize that dying is just giving life and the go along with the cycle....


Conclusion

Nace your argument is both baseless and biased. Its built on nothing more than Faith which means at any given moment its going to shatter and crumble like so many god based things in this world.....

I voted.

*cough*, I'm 14...[now]

Then let's take this argument to the next level.
Right now we're basically just comparing humans and animals.
Let's go further, and go towards evolution and creation, and like I said, I'll debate about it with all of you, without bible quotations.
Since many of you are just questioning my belief and God, then why don't I try my best to prove it to you, on a higher scale.

And thus you show that you have absolutely no basis for your argument except your own religious ideals.

Your entire point was that Humans are above animals, and thus should be abstinent, talking about evolution vs. creation would be off topic.

You're basically arguing and staying at the same point. Are laws not really based off of morals, to seperate what is right, and what is wrong? Does 'the law' really care about how you feel, what you think, or what you want to do?



Have you ever seen a female dog in heat, and how it can attract all the male dogs within a certain area?



Then who's to say that animals have no need for a government until they get to that point?



You can say that about the kid, as you already know why the sky is blue in the day, and why it was dark at night. But trying to use it in this argument just doesn't work. You don't know anything more about my religion, than your 'incredibly stupid idea to explain it' as a book of fables or fiction, simply because ' you had to formulate this in your head, because nothing else made sense to you '.



So just because we have that one similarity, we're from monkeys right?

Humans can have well formed rational faculties, our ability to develop an argument, then follow a line of logic, then draw conclusions and then frame a hypotheses

Also we have a marked faculty for language. We have an enormous vocabulary, our grammar is complex, and our conversations are deep and meaningful.

Our ability to codify our language into writing.

We also have a stronger spirit of inquiry, our research in the fields of physics, medicine, mathematics, astronomy.

We yearn for meaning in life, which is why we study philosophy, theology, ethics.

We're concerened with questions not of origin itself, but destiny also.

... all just like monkeys right?



BUT we can still taking that 'training' away and do whatever we want. When was the last time you saw an antelope run straight into the mouth of a lion, or drown itself?



Right...



So what, you're trying to put something like the tobacco company and something religious on the same level? You can easily say that the Philip Morris research isn't even considered research, becaused we all know what tobacco does to our bodies. But what about something religious? You've never witnessed it, never made it, so how would you know?



You said humans aren't like any specific animal, and you said no animals are like each other. So what animals are humans like?



So you'd rather believe something that has a lot of problems within the theory itself, then something that has a better chance of standing than what you have now? I think 'anyone worth their salt' could make a better decision than that. I can even show you what's wrong with the evolutionary theory, Darwinian theory, the Big Bang, Primordial Soup, and then maybe you can ask yourself. No one's forcing religion on you, so it doesn't matter if the message you get is along the lines of 'behave, or fire', because obviously if you're going to attack something like the Bible, at least know what it's completely about first -- research, then attack it. Don't just attack the same point over and over again.



So the way you see it is, you can keep on feeling good all you want as long as you don't hurt anybody or yourself right?

Do I really need to say more?

Uh-huh, laws are based off *some people's* morals. Some people think drugs should be illegal. Some people think smoking should be illegal. Some people think driving without a seatbelt should be illegal. Surely you wouldn't say that driving without a seatbelt is immoral though.


And your point? Have you ever seen a girl in a skimpy outfit, and how it can attract all the male dawgs within a certain area?

Again, you still have failed to show that animals are unable to practice abstinence. All you've shown is that they don't want to, which is exactly my point.


Exactly my point. Animals either do not need (likely, the finely balanced chaos in nature doesn't seem to be a huge issue) or do not want a government.


And still, you cannot prove that they are anything but. My point is that believing everything out of a book because you didn't know the answer before is the biggest downfall of religion and religious people. Hell, your own practices show this. You'd never see a bunch of scientists getting together and saying "I believe! I believe in Gravity! I believe that whatever goes up must come down!" "Sing it, brother!"-- because they don't need to. You need to be reaffirmed of the world around you. Science is perfectly happy to wait for the answer, and admit that the answer is wrong sometimes. You'd be insane to debate that Sol revolves around the Earth now, but you clung to that so strongly because admitting the universe is bigger than ourselves scares you.


Oh dear, no. I'm saying that saying that humans are able to use tools doesn't set us apart, plenty of animals do that by themselves.

Although humans are very closely related to monkeys, yes.


As can bees, or rats, or dogs. "Oh, If I go here, I get shocked, if I fly there, I get food"


must.. resist...


The thing is though, animals don't need to do this. What good is thinking about why the sky is blue, really? All I need to do is get food, stay alive, and have fun. Whether the sky is blue or lime green doesn't matter.


And? Again, animals are able to communicate with each other perfectly well for their needs. And again, you're ignoring feral children, who often times cannot learn to speak through anything other than basic showings.

Modern language is very useless for the fundamentals of life if you think about it.


Which is due to the good luck of evolving opposable thumbs, really. Honestly, that's the only thing that keeps us from being no different than dogs.


Obviously you've never owned a cat. Animals can be very curious about things, but they don't worry about things that don't bother them. What good does going into space do for a bird, or being able to do long division to an antelope?


Are you saying that's an improvement over animals?


Yep, and again, why do you *need* to care? I could know the history of the universe from beginning to end, and it wouldn't help me to live or enjoy my life.


Your point is moot, unless you take an antelope that has been raised in a cage, with no contact with other animals or a real environment, into the wild.


And teaching our children to be stupid, waging wars over holy lands, and causing giant rifts in humanity is a good thing? I'd be willing to bet that more people have been killed in the name of jihad, crusades, religion fueled wars, killings, witch hunting, intolerance than have been hurt by tobacco.

How is a religion researching a topic to improve it's viewpoint any different than a company researching a topic that improves it's sales?


When was the last time you saw something religious yourself?


All of them and none of them. Same as any other animal. We have our similarities and we have our differences. Same as any person. The same as anyone you run into on a street will be a human, any human you run into will be an animal. We can be very, very, very different creatures, with definite differences, but we are still creatures.


Not at all. If something came along that was more logical than the theories in place now, I'd be interested in it. That said, I haven't seen anything better than evolution. Since creationism is founded on imaginary beings, and has a shitload of problems, I don't follow it.


Which you haven't.

Go ahead, but I've probably already heard it. I'm guessing you're going to talk about how the big bang would've still needed creation (which the Church has supported, on at least one occasion), how the fossil record is missing parts, and how evolution has never actually been observed, right?


Do you honestly believe that's true? How many religious families do you know that actually ENCOURAGE their children to THINK about what they're worshiping? Hell, how many have you met that hasn't also taught it to their kids, and forced their kids to attend church with them, and follow their beliefs?


Way to completely ignore the subject and try to change it. NICE.


Again, I have. Like I said earlier, most atheists know more about theology than monotheists.


So the way you see it is, doing good things is bad, right?

Your ideals are exactly the problem here--- You believe that sex is bad, because your parents told you that, because your society told you that, because a little black book told you that. You've never actually thought about WHY sex is bad, and if you had, I imagine you'd come up with little but a work of fiction, propaganda from people who are promoting it, and a few completely incorrect point.

Go on, tell me how feeling good and not hurting anybody is a BAD thing.

Since I cannot be bothered to nit-pick all the holes in your argument at the moment like you seem to be able to do about anything that anyone has ever stated, I will continue to edit this post as I get around to it.

I would like to start with one of the first things that stood out to me:


That is hardly a well formed sense of rational faculties. Nearly every form of life makes those decisions. What sets us apart is the WELL FORMED part of our rational faculties. Obviously if something were to hurt a fly it shouldn't do it again. But wouldn't you know? They generally go right for it again. Now if a human were to get shocked when it touched an object, its first reaction would be: Gee, that hurts! Let's not do that again, so that I can save myself the pain.
That is the well formed part of our rational faculties that you two are speaking of.

Because one of the most simple minded creatures on the planet is a good example of the animal kingdom as a whole.

Like I've said, plenty of other animals show the same reasoning as humans. Rats, dogs, monkeys, dolphins, they ALL learn to avoid things that hurt them.

the mod speaks, I go no further, and I wish you a good day sir

People really need to take basic psychology before trying to post any ideas in which they think is right. For once instance, sure, maybe using a FLY (one of the worlds most simple minded species) was not a smart idea, but Feba did continue with other listings.

I'd like to bring light to something called "Associative Learning" (Yes, it's a real term get a psych book and read). In short, it's learning by association. In your case, put a human in a cage. It has 1 button on it. By pressing this button s/he gets food. When he also presses this button he gets a shock by the shock pad below s/he.

Now, but your "logic" this test subject shouldn't press the button again right? WRONG. It's his only way of food, he's learned that he's getting two things 1) A shock and 2) Food when he presses the button.

As another example, we use another species with 2 buttons, in this case, a rat. There are 2 buttons in the cage, both black, on on the right, one on the left. The one on the left shocks the shock pad, and the one on the right gives the rat food. The rat will eventually learn to press the one on the right only, because the left shocks him. The food is called a Primary reinforcer.

To say that we are apart from them because of this simple fact is just plain ignorant.

Oo I was trying to counter his post best I could with the education of a 13 year old. Even for my age my understanding surpasses that of many. Sorry I didn't bring up the advanced terms and theories.
Thanks for the correction though.

BTW welcome to srf

Ok, and when he actually posts that I'll care.

Either way, if a mod said not to, you did anyway knowing full well, that's your problem, not mine.

If I were you, I'd question everything in life. I sure wish I had when I was a kid, you have no idea how something I thought was a fact turned out to be bullshit.

If someone tells you the sky is blue, look up and see. If someone tells you pi is 3.14259, look it up, at multiple sources.

It's better to live without knowing the answer to something than knowing a lie.

post

and stop double posting thnx.

and i cant bother to read through all posts.. so im just gonna tell yall to
stick to the subject.

what age were you when

If you want to delve into this kind of topic (where people are reaching masters/+30/PhD level discussions (which I'm positive people on this forum do not have), then people need to read what they are trying to talk about before hand (not assaulting you here, just saying, in general). Most of the "theories" and "discussion" on this thread are so off base, it's not even funny.

Thanks for the welcome.

Alright then.


not my fault people have nothing better to do during euro maintenence



I wish that question wasn't so complicated in my case

It's not even considered off topic if you think about it. Whenever I refer to something, you say 'book of fables' 'book of fiction' whatever, because you see it from an evoultionary stand point of view. Looking at it from a Creation point of view, and believe me, even Science these days is considered a religion, can actually show you something different.

It's been a good debate so far, and at times heated. But honestly I don't want to keep checking back here and replying, quoting, replying etc.
This DOES NOT mean that I don't want to continue this, but at times this debate does seem pointless. If you want to continue, just PM or so, and we can continue somewhere else, from your last post.

Regards,
Nace

Wrong.

Anyway, cin as already said to stop, so stop.

guys DONT continue this discussion. this is not the right thread

u gonna get this thread locked. stick to the subject

<3

+1 *laughed so hard *
@Nace & other guys against him
ppl chill u dont have same ideals morals and ideas about world life etc ...make peace whit it

Yes this is a sex topic, not a freaking morals topic