Silkroad Online Forums

agreed. euros are made to party, chinese can solo fine. however does that necesarily means a balance/imbalance? dont think so. ive followed various mmo's where similar things happend eg when in guild wars the assasin came out everybody kept shouting they where overpowered. a year later the other classes adepted and noone shouted about an imbalance anymore. i think something similar is going to happen in sro. when euros exist for a year or so, the chinese will be adapted and the game will be back to normal. then chinese learn to know they are no longer the kings, but they will be able to coexist on an equal foot with the euros. and btw you will find that "underpowered" chinese nukers are still dominating pve while according to the "overpowered euros" mantra they should be incapable of prevailing with euros, which they weirdly manage to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbn_5IGe ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHu_EBah ... re=related

Thats how fast rogue dies.

Rogue does huge damage only on nukers, rogue with xbow extreme can kill nuker 10 lvls higher on 1 hit, but dies easly from 10lvl lower warrior or nuker.


If euro can buy items which make them fastrer, why chinese cant? The same with damage boost.


You have castle shield/fanning spear, which is for 15s time, but loads 4 times faster.


If assasin strikes you from back with daggers, i dont think he will only cut your hear instead of killing you before you will see him...


Do you know their lvls? Do you know their set? And it isnt easy to survive 5 hits with cleric's blesses.


Ok, lets count how many skills you use at lvl 80.
Wizard:
Meteor, Fire bolt, Earth barrier, Crystal Invisible, Frozen Spear, Charged Squall, Blizzard, Life control
Cleric:
Holy Spell, Recovery Division, Bless spell, Healing Orbit.
Quite a lot.


Life turnover, Bless spell, Holy spell, Recovery division, Healing Orbit, Earth Barrier, Crystal Invisible
For example chinese blader fire+lighting
Ironwall shield, Fire shield, Flame body, Fire protection, Piercing Force, Grass Walk, Concentration, Fire wall and imbue.


Have you saw hits from rogue crossbow without xbow extreme? Without that buff it is impossible to kill any chinese str. With xbow extreme they die easily to any character which will attack them faster(I am warlock 5:1 int and i usually put dots and finish with one nuke rogues 6lvls higher)


Then euros should get ability to wear what they want without looking at mastery and potion delay - 3 sec.


Improve game? No problem - they have to decide if they ban bots, or make bot using legit.


Some euro classes are highly overrated, some are highly underrated.

Very interesting, but in case you haven't noticed:

The rogues in video NEVER used invisibility. They stood close to the glaivers too...lol... and honestly, you know that that's not the way rogues fight!

Also, the warrior killed by the spear nuker was wearing full 7D.. but the nuker that took so long to kill him was wearing FULL 8D garments!!!!!!! so that's a lv69+, not a 7D guy


and hey wdwarrior! I think you haven't read my previous comment correctly.


I divide gameplay into four types:

solo pve - Chinese stronger
team pve - Euro Stronger (a lot)
solo pvp - Euro Stronger (a lot)
team pvp - Euro Strong beyond belief

My point about imbalance was that the two races should each have advantage in two of the four types. Right now, its 1:3.

Also, if you meant "adapt", you should first consider the fact that Chinese characters of ALL types of builds are experiencing out-of-proportion casualties in war/job/cape. The invisibility coupled with outrageous damage, for example, is simply impossible to deal with. Chinese characters can't even see their deaths coming (1-shot and invisibility).

Those players have D9 gear. The relative balance will probably change at level 90. So this is not representative of the balance at level 80.

What?

With all the arguments that euros are so strongly based on the "party model", why should a rogue be able to kill a pure str in 4-5 hits in 1v1?

The real problem, however, is rogue vs pure int. Crossbow extreme negates any advantage gained from being able to use pots with no delay. So even if rogue vs str might be somewhat balanced, it completely messes up rogue vs int.

What FWX is doing, is pointing out the problems with chinese vs euro and what could be done to make it more balanced. Your suggestions would keep the relative balance unchanged (or possibly even make it worse).

If euros win 8/10 and changes are proposed to even that out a bit, you can not add more bonuses or what have you to the already winning "side". Do you see what I'm saying?

hey fwx,
hope you arent tired yet of me because i dispute your every argument. im just gonna make you hate me even more with my next reply .

Indeed chinese have only 1 advantage, euros 3. However does that means an imbalance? No because solo pve, where chinese chars still have an advantage, is also the part of the game that is most time consuming. most of the time you will solo pve as most monster locations arent crowded, put aside flooded with ppl that want to party. so in pvp i think the chinese are equal, if not superior to euros. there massive weakness in pvp has to be solved indeed but isnt enough to declare chinese chars inferior imo.
I also suggest you look to the future: the 90 cap where chinese (especially the nukers) are gonna make a comeback, and i wonder if you then gonna start a new topic shouting that chinese are overpowered. and then the islam is gonna come and one race will be on top again. and then the 100 cap comes, further empowering chinese, while euros will again be left with a moderate update. while the 90 cap should balance things out, the 100 cap will place chinese on a pedestal of glory, while leaving the proud euros wondering why they didnt made a bicheon nuker while they had the chance. i guess this game will never be balanced fully untill ppl learn that perfect balance isnt possible, and they just learn to live and play with a class of their choice without wondering that someone else can take one hit more or deal a bit more damage.

Although I'm not FWX, I feel I must reply to your comment.
It is also the part of the game people do not care one bit about. This is why they let a program (bot) play that part for them. So this is not the issue at all.

The problem is that in PvP (euro vs chinese), there are significant imbalances. You cannot say that PvP is balanced simply because more time is technically spent on PvE. You must look at PvP. And only PvP, to be able to determine if there are any problems.

If you strictly limit your answer to PvP. Why is that your opinion?

I wouldn't have a problem with that. But as for now, we don't have the 90 cap. I haven't seen a release date for it, so it could be released next week, or next year for all i know.

As incompetent as joymax is, i don't doubt it. But it does not have to be that way.

This is speculation at best.

This this even make sense?

You cannot generalize the euro problem right now by saying that it just isn't possible to make it balanced. Is JM even trying? Do most people here even acknowledge that there might be a problem?

90 cap aside, isn't "a bit", an understatement? Right now, i get hit for 3-4x my hp, and they don't even crit.

Every build has weakness. Nuker is now very strong because of snow shield, ut there must be some builds that can easy own them.

thats only because you have good gear what about for the newer people on sro they dont have sox weapons and armor like you do

okay progress you have a few valid points. yet the 100 cap isnt speculation (ever heard of ksro?). also i agree joymax does nothing to balance and they must do more, but i played a whole load of mmo's and none of them could say they where perfectly balanced. however over time ppl learned to live with that. agreed that some ppl dont care a bit about solo pve but you cant generalise that. there is a large number of ppl who do play a lot of solo pve, sometimes because they like it and more often because no parties are availible. youre points about pvp are valid, and i agree the differences arent as marginal as i just posted (sorry i was a bit unclearly stating my point there). however as joymax is as skilled in balancing this game as bush is capable of dealing with terorism, we should learn to live with this imbalance if we want to enjoy sro.

o yes and finally hideoki i want to congrat you. you are the first who sees the euro/chinese in a balanced, well thought perspective rather than shouting about this imbalance

hey wdwarrior,

I don't hate you anymore than some random stranger (that means no resentment at all). I wonder where you got that from.

By the way, the "time-consuming" PvE, imo, isn't the attraction of SRO no matter which player you ask.

In fact, you can hold a survey on this forum and ask all the players out there the following question:

"Which part of SRO do you ENJOY the most?"

I think most people will tell you that its PvE that they enjoy the least, because otherwise, there wouldn't be so many player bots.
SRO is just not the game to play for its solo pve.
Who loves a good day of grinding alone?

SRO has the reputation of being a "grind-fest", which nobody enjoys. I think its pretty obvious that people play SRO for the player-interaction.

and HOW is 1-3 not an imbalance? when you reach lvl80 cap?
lv80 farmed characters do NOT do PvE. Euro characters (rogue, warrior, wizard, more) have no problem botting their way to 80 either. (just check out the euro bots EVERYWHERE, botting with Euro is NOT HARD AT ALL!!! they level even faster than legit Chinese characters)


Also, why are you talking about future 90~100+ caps?

I am talking about the situation right NOW, not how the game is going to be in 1~3 years.

My point, again, is that "Chinese and Euro races are not balanced, and that Chinese characters are too weak by game-design than the Euros".

My point, again, is NOT that "Chinese and Euro races WILL not be balanced".

Having said so much, I do hate illogical and inconsistent arguments. Please read my posts before commenting on them next time.

Unfortunately, that build (rogue) can easily pwn PURE STR Chinese glaivers and bladers too. (invisibility)

That is imbalance.

Just because very few MMO out there are imbalanced means that imbalance in games are acceptable?

"however as joymax is as skilled in balancing this game as bush is capable of dealing with terorism, we should learn to live with this imbalance if we want to enjoy sro."

Did you mean the following? "Since Joymax built their game poorly, half the players should live with being unfairly disadvantaged in game play."

How valid are your points?


PLEASE USE SOME LOGIC IN YOUR ARGUMENTS!!!

POLLs are UP.

Chinese Gmae-play Survey
Euro Game-play Survey


More vids supporting my argument:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6LI_c0KrrI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q315bmbF ... re=related

But if they will use any skill, they lost invisibility, and most str builds have lighting maxed, so it easy easy to get near them + bladers have phy def buff which casts immediatly + you can always wear armor...

Where is the line between weakness and imbalance drawn?

The main advantage chinese players have is the no pot delay. But with the extremely high damage from wizards and rogues (and even two-handers, to some extent), that advantage does not exist. That is a big problem. Snow shield is also useless since with invisibility or stealth, they will just wait until it is gone.

What you are suggesting is unrealistic. The time it takes for a wizard or rogue to become visible and complete their attack is so short that in practise, what you suggest cannot be done. Also, taking the lag (latency) into account, your suggestion becomes even more absurd.

The bottom line is that it is far easier for them to carry out an effective attack than it is to counter it.

I don't see how anybody can really argue against this. As a chinese, I could pretty much never beat a player 5-6 levels higher. And this rogue is running around one-hitting them, without they even notice it's coming.

Ridiculous.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dsth2Yome3k


it is NOT easy to get close to a rogue...

and DUH... if the Rogues' stealth didn't go away with skill-use, then they'd b able to take on 3 eight-man-parties of cap-lvl Chinese characters at once. (instead of 2 cap chars at once)

Euro > Chinese ???
Sorry but one big bullsh*t...


I play as xbow/cleric... i have no problems with killing Euro or Chinese players up to 71 lvl (i dont count 72 lvl coz they got last tiers of degree 8 sets and this can be hard to kill, - why? more later...) after i get 64 lvl.

But... with CE im on 1 nuke, 2 sword-throw skills (sorry i dont know name of that), 1 glavie combo... even on 1 god hit... thats is imbalance!!!!!!! Wowowowow... i can shout that everywhere...

15 secs of potions (except grains)
1 stun and im off...
1-2-3 shot and im dead...

True, Euro warrior could be hard too kill with this shout that increase hp, especially 2h sword, but if you are Chinese your life is much more easier. You got 3 secs of pot delay, got vigors to use (anyone saw Chinese using Vigors? I dont saw... but euro use and thats why they stay sometime long enough), high damage/defensive power - and if you are good player you can kill those damn euros without problems... you need to THINK not 'ILL RUSH HIM AND KILL HIM' but "HMM... ILL KILL HIM WHEN HE SHOW UP AFTER GETTING IN MY TRAP"

And 1 word at the end: even bard could kill Chinese blader (i saw that so this isn't impossible...). Why? Coz he understimate bard... before he go close enought to bard, he chceck how hard is ground today (bard onky used his absolute damage skill, and run near blade, then used that skill what attack up to 5 ppl around bard)...

1. be smart = be winner
2. get sosun set = euro can have biiiiig problem (if dont have absolutness damage)
3. think... as twice as on normal play with other Chinese

Please read most of the comments before you comment.

1st - you die in 3 hits or a stun, but Chinese characters either die in 1-2 hits from you or can never get close to you because your skills do drive-back + KD SO FREAKIN OFTEN

2nd - Chinese characters set traps for Euro characters??? lol... that's gotta be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Who is the one with invisibility here? How can a Chinese character set up a trap for a Euro while the Euro can see him all the time?

3rd - get sosun set... yeah... is it easier for a Chinese Char to get Deg8 SoSun set or is it easier for the Euro to get a +5 weapon? Fact is, Chinese chars with full SoSun can still be owned by Euros in 2 shots. That is IMBALANCE.

Btw... you complain about dying in PvP... why don't you get SoSUN?

Be smart, use your tactical advantage. The only reason that you, a rogue, can ever die at the hands of Chinese character is if you don't time your strikes right. You are the invisible guy who has a range of 25+ meters (far out of range Chn detection skills).

The only way for a Euro char to lose in PvP against a Chinese char is if he/she is an idiot.

And dude, we have 1 sec pot-delay. It also happens to be pretty useless cuz only one of our pots can take effect before Euro chars' crazy damage output kills us. Ever seen a 72 rogue (with +5/6 xbow) killing full SoSun lv80 Chinese Glaiver in 5 hits? (3 times in a row, once got lucky crit - 3 hits) The glaiver never even got to him. Now, take that, and think for yourself what a lv80 xbow does every breathing second of his life. The imbalance is SO SEVERE right now that its a massacre, not a fight.



Btw... "1 nuke, 2 sword-throw skills" shout that everywhere, because if you are anything but a noob bot, a pure INT Chinese nuker within 10 levels of you should never be able to set off a single skill before falling to the ground (exclude shock, its almost inst cast)

Alright first off this is no longer become an argument about euro being imbalanced when compred to chinese. This has become an argument about the imbalance of rogues in general. Everything you state imo is talking about rogues, with the possibility of a few referring to or that can be applied to wizards. The truth is not everyone is a rogue and like the guy who you disagreed with said, if you play smart you can kill them too.

How you ask? stop soloing them in pvp. If you know 1 v 1 is your disadvantage get your friends and start team battling. The second they come out of stealth to pick one of you off your team mates can see him, phantom and shout/nuke/blade force/sword dance/heuksal throw/arrow combo etc and take them out relatively quickly. On top of that when they res you can use the desthealth skill, it stays on until the cooldowns off, and then you can kill them again and again.

As well like you said chinese pots are 1 second each and with crits that doesnt make a difference. Well sure +3 - +5 weps are easy to obtain for euros, but ones with high crit and + can easily become more expensive than chinese weps. And to counter high dmg you too can set your auto pot super high and start using vigors like the euros do. Considering the charge of a rogue attack (see i use rogues as an example as thats what your mainly arguing) are relatively long, once you survive the first attack, you'll have an easier time getting close or launching an attack. If you get kd/kb yes annoying then thats your bad luck.

Then of course theres the counter argument, so what if the euros start partying? Well even if they do so what? Thats when the game becomes more fun. People will start having to play together more and strategize and things like stupid pot wars, safe zone huggers and what not will be no more.

Finally im not saying the game is perfectly balanced. But considering how well done it is so far, if it continues to distress you why not go play another game? You can play there eb happy with balance and regail us with tales of how well the other game is made.

But this topic isnt about you, it is about balancing the game. One method i can think of that would really balance the main problem you are arguing about (rogues' and wizs' high dmg output and invisibility) make them attackable whiel stealthed. This may sound confusing but hear me out. A lot of chinese attacks are aoe, sword dance, nukes, shouts, autumn wind, soul spear etc. The main problem right now is that you cannot attack what you cannot see, and when invis/stealth you aren't hit by aoe attacks or splash from things like lightning imbue. So by allowing rogues/wiz anything else that can stealth using rogue/wiz as sub to be dmged by splash. Then things seem to become mroe balanced no? In pvp daggers, a huge rogue favourite, would become too dangerous, as they'd have to get close and risk being hit by splash from a lightning nuke or other attack. But you say theres xbow. See the problem with that is with CE on, due to lack of hp and defence, it makes you far too succeptible to be killed easily to justify running around with it on. Of course you can argue only noob players wouldn't be able to judge the situation and move away ahead of time but considering how slow stealthed/invis makes you move moving out of the way becomes a hard feat.

Then theres jobbing, who doesn't hate wiz thieves who come out of stealth, aoe nuke, eveyrone dies and their comrades come out to get the spoils. Well thats why one must play smart. Theres are few spots along trade paths without mobs. So just aoe nuke them every so often to prevent wiz's from hiding there.

As for spots with few mobs where any jobber could hide and areas where xbow rogues could hide in pvp. This is another part where playing smart comes into play. Having 2 - 3 chinese with destealth running and phantoming around makes it difficult for any rogue or wiz to hide, and like stated before sure they can take out one of you but thats why the rest are there. And no they cant restealth as after an attack or being attacked they have to wait before using the skill again.

So once again this would just force players to use more strategy in game and play together mroe in teams, which, if you look at ksro, seems to make the game a lot more fun.

Is this Amidala? o_O
Yeah man euro chars are pretty strong. But next cap, I think bladers will have a much better time against wizards, and glaives who are smart will be able to beat xbows 1v1. It's all about using your skills correctly. And, of course, the 90 cap helps too.

It is. Sometimes you have to go into specifics when people argue about specifics.Because people are arguing against it in such a way that certain things must be said before "we" can move on to other classes.


Irrelevant. The discussion is not about the probability that someone is a rogue.

If someone is a rogue, then most of what has been said applies.


Chinese are made for 1v1. So if we can't solo them in pvp, does that not imply an imbalance, or at the very least some kind of problem?


It is not a discussion of what particular strategy might be effective.


Yes, lets put 8 wizards(or rouges) vs 8 pure int nukers. If there is balance, each will win 50% of the time. I predict however, that wizards will take it 9/10. Regardless of what you think of that example, if such a situation would occur, even then, there must be balanace. And this is not a question of how probable it is that it will happen. Therefore any kind of "well it won't happen every often" - argument cannot be used.


Because he has invested a lot of time into this game, just like you? Why should he not expect, what ever build he has, to able to be competitive? If anyone has to leave, or feels like it is pointless from a balance standpoint, then is that not as close to a "proof" of imbalances as you can possibly get?


How about we lower rouge's and wizard's attacks in some way, and somewhat reduce the effectiveness of some of the stronger buffs, instead? I think that is a much better idea.

Nice suggestion for skill edit near the end, but I think giving Chinese ICE tree the stealth might also be needed, cuz Wizards can get Cleric sub and survive many hits, but Chinese pure int chars just can't one way or another.

The above is only for brainstorming purposes, but any possible skill-edit will likely only come much later, so they do not apply to the current situation.


Also, there are some points here that I disagree with.

First, this thread is focusing more on rogues and wizards because they are the centers of this imbalance. These characters can 1-hit Chinese characters (pure INT, their lvl, +5/6 set). The warrior classes and warlocks are also excellent pvp builds. Have you never seen a warlock killing pure str Chinese characters without getting hit at all? The problem about not being able to play "smart" is that there is NO WAY for us to detect them before getting hit by them. If the game were as you suggested, then maybe it would have worked out if a bunch of Chinese hunters were up against 1 rogue/wizard thief. Even then, however, I doubt the spread damage can get a rogue. Only mind-bow can hit far enough to have spread damage get close to a x-bow rogue in stealth. Overall, if you have (full-farmed) 3 Chinese Glaivers and 2 Chinese Nukers in team, and you are up against 4 well-built rogue/wizards... That's a guaranteed loss. Sending the glaivers out for scouting sill get them killed. Staying behind with the rest of the people will only make the Euro chars' trap work better.

Also, we all know that there is a limit to concentration time that any person can maintain. Why does one group of players have to on the tip of their nerves all the time while the other group can just relax and pick them off whenever they feel like it?

You said "If you know 1 v 1 is your disadvantage get your friends and start team battling."
Well, that's called "teaming" or "cheating" in PvP. That isn't about playing smart, its about breaking the rules of pvp. Of course, a team of 8 can kill 1 lone character.

You also mentioned "team pvp". Well, fact is, a team of euro is much stronger than those euros on their own. (warriors and clerics can buff up the rogues and wizards on top of those characters' own buffs) Since this is a comparison between the two races of characters' imbalance, we will have consider a team of Chinese char against a team of Euro char. That will make it impossible for the Chinese chars to win. Of course, the Chinese chars can party with clerics and warriors, but if that's what they have to do to stay alive in pvp, then they'd be as dependent as Euros. If I remembered right, one of the design purposes of Chinese character is to be MORE independent than Euros.

I think good idea would be increasing destealth range to 30-40 meters and still increase it by lvling destealth skill so rogues cant hide so easily.(moving speed under stealth state is decreased) Why not giving invisibile at cold tree? Because it could make chinese overpowered against classes which cant hide(warlocks, clerics) So it would look like that: rogue > wizard > chinese with cold tree > rest. Ability to hide themself makes rogues and wizards unique.

well youre right that invisebilty is unique for wizards and rogues. i dont think everyone should get it but they should balance some things. first they should increase destealth potency and should especially remove or reduce the balance by giving more penaltys for stealth like lower damage or lower armor when stealth ends. that way a hidden charr would be still a threat but wont be overpowered.

invisebility isnt that much of an adventage its easy to go around. it only gets annoying when there are a couple of people doing it. 1 vs 1 its not that big of an advantage.

ya, increasing destealth range would help. and giving chinese invis would spawn a herd of people shouting imba. You'd have spear nukers come out and stun you and then kb. Or a blader come out and kd. As well like the poster above me said in 1 v 1 situations which you people seemed fixated on stealth isnt useful, and coming out of safe stealthed and sniping does not count as 1 v 1.
About the lowered def after stealth. I find it useless. Why? We all know out of stealth they die 1 -2 hits anyways, so it wont make much of a difference.
As for warlocks, i know they rock eh ^^. but like you said it requires playing smart. There is no neede to use range atks just because the rogue or wiz is ranged, you have a huge phantom walk that can take out the rogues easily. As for wiz they have teleport, but i believe phantom outranges it and they'd have to keep running because in the tiem it takes to start a nuke you could probably one hit them.
As for your point about why should one group have to keep up a guard. I agree it doesn't seem fair but consider this. What is anyone doing being afk or not paying attention while pvping or on a trade run. Having to be on guard is part of what makes doing this fun. Though it may be a bit unfair, thats also why i suggested the being able to hit them while stealthed thing, so they'd have to go really far back, forcing them to xbow but with slow loading time you should have plenty of time to send at least one other ally over using phantom or something to kill.
And im not suggesting it be a gnag bang like 8 on 1 guy. because yes thats annoying, however what im suggesting is that if peopel started taking on the mentality that it is necessary to work together then you'd have mroe large scale pvping. And though we are arguing about euro vs chinese you cant ignore the fact that in actual gameplay unless you have no friends or people of the same faction or same union, you could probably have some euros on your side too.
The only reason people dont always accept team pvps is because they think it should be left for union or guild wars. But what about those with inactive unions or weak guilds, having a team pvp could still be fun.
As for the large scale team pvp, well think about it this way, what they want is for you to go and start a pot war trying to take out the warriors who would probably have the "god" skins on. Thats why you phantom behind them and aoe the clerics and wizs and if you're lucky even the rogues as they'd probably stay relatively close for healing purposes. All above mentioned could die from at most three good hits, but considering if 4 of you phantom and lets say two die and aoe, while the 4 that stay back nuke or snipe them too, then they die. Rendering the warriors somewhat vulnerable.
As for progress, wow, thanks for pointing out that soemthing i said was irrelevant, might i add that by doing so what you stated added absolutely nothing to the debate either? And saying that everyoen is not a rogue, was to try and direct your attention to the larger picture. Euro are imba in general not just the rogues, so you could start talking about the other classes as well unless you find that only the rogues and wizs are imba.
And where exactly does it say chinese are made for 1 v 1? Before euros came out, did they not party? did they not go out and union war or job?
And your comment about this not being a discussion about strategies, then you're ignoring the fact that there are ways to kill them its just that ignorant peopel such as yourself choose to not acknowledge them or even try it out as you'd rather just complain about these things than go out and do something. As well its basically that because people are noobs or too stupid to pvp effectively that its the games fault.
As well what would the point of having 8 wizards or rogues in a single party be? To kill everyone? and if that were the case why would the chinese players all choose 8 pure ints to be in party. Thats ignoring the dynamics of the game. Thats ignoring the fact that when you have a variety of players with different skills on a team that they could fair much better and pull off better strategies. So why not use an example like o we're gonna have 8 pure str warriors against 8 pure int clerics ROFLZ we are going to pwnzor them cuz we imba. No thats nto how things work why would you ever even have a set up like that, but then again for people who choose to ignore how versatile the game can be, i guess these situations can come up quite a few times. Why can i use this argument? because like i said before a game is not unbalanced because people choose to be ignorant of the fact that there are better strategies you could use.
And so what if he spent a lot of time on the game? If he spends alot of the time on the game and still cant realize how versatile the game can be and how well different characters can work together, then isnt there soemthing wrong with them? And yes he should be able to know he can go out there and compete, why shouldn't he? The problem is when they think running out there all alone with no strategy and dying makes the game imba that the problem is not with the game but the player. As well if they were to play so long should they nto have realized that characters can work together erally well? That means topics like this shouldn't even exist as you can help eachother just like the strongest unions in all the servers. And if anyone leaves the game because they feel the game is unbalanced in no way proves that the game is unbalanced. Its liek me saying im gonna stop posting on this forum because everyoen here likes to play WoW and not silkroad. Does that make it true? Not at all. What one person sees as imbalanced is just they're perspective and could be due to lack of experience, or skill.
And the reason you wouldn't lower a rogue's or qizard's attack buff is because those are signature to their class. Its like saying chinese are unfair because the lightning users can run really fast and kill us all so lets take that away. Or snowshield and those ice guards give a lot of phys def, rogues dont have a def buff lets remove the ice buffs. As well if you were to lower it, then that in no way justifies why they must also lose so much def and/or hp. DE loses 75% of BOTH phys and mag def. And since they still have to use two skills to kill quite often, then how would it be fair that they can 1 shot? And yes im aware they can also one hit people, but even then with the huge lack of def simple arrow combos can kill them. As for CE half your hp and a large chunk of phys def means they lose so much of what it means to be pure str, and makes them so much easier to kill. Same with life control or life turnover.

Or you would have wizards coming out and one hits. Same with rouges. Annoying? You bet. This statement shows you lack objectivity.

So why do people use it?

What does it count as then?

Lets apply lower damage, then? This was also his suggestion.


Then there is the problem of lag, which makes this unrealistic. You will get hit first, and if you are int, you will die. The fact that you die in one hit is a core problem. This cannot be ignored.


Not as an int. If they are chased by an int, they don't need to run. Wizard's nukes are faster than chinese nukes, so they win 9/10.


What you did here is called a strawman. He did not say they would not be paying attention, and he certainly did not imply that they would be afk.


Xbow does not have any slower "loading time" than a chinese nuke. Usually they only need one shot anyway. Overall though, your suggestion is unrealistic.

If the chinese need euros to be competitive, or if this is an argument as to how party vs party would be more balanced, then the fact that you need a euro makes them, per definition, overpowered.



Except chinese does not have the kind of AoE attack that can actually do this. Lighting nukes loses serious power after the first target. Also, they would most likely target you before you used phantom walk, and since there is this system of "locking on", they would simply attack you. Any attack from a rogue or wizard would kill an int 9/10. I guess a glaiver or a blader would survive 2 hits and being able to maybe kill a wizard. But then you have the problem of bless. So in reality, you suggestion will not work.


Level 80 meat shield huh? Two need to "sacrifice" themselves for something that will fail more often than not. Not my idea of balance and nor should it be yours.

Except their extremely strong protection does not wear off so fast. Ultimately, you are arguing with theoretical scenarios that just will not work for one reason or another.



You may, but in doing so, you demonstrate that you fail to understand why i said it was irrelevant.

Sometimes, parts of discussions most be set aside to inform people that they are stepping outside of the subject being discussed.


When something specific is discussed, the specifics most then be dealt with before you can move on to the bigger picture.

I could. But that would somewhat take us into another disucssion. Lets settle this one first.

I do not believe anyone said that it says somewhere that chinese are made for 1v1, so there is no guarantee that anyone can direct you to such "writings".

It does however seem to be a widespread opinion that chinese are far more focued on 1v1 or "soloing", than euros. This is probably based on the fact that chinese can get more skilltrees than euros, and hence, in theory, become more versatile. Then of course there is the very low pot delay, which strongly suggests that chinese are far more independent than euros. A 1v1 fight should reflect this, but does not.

The concept of balance in this context is that it should be just as easy for them to kill me as it should be for me to kill them. But then you have the suggestion that chinese should be better in 1v1, whereas euros should (and certainly does), benefit from being in a party. As things are now, euros are better 1v1 and they are better in a party. The strategies that you bring up do not chance that fact.

Silkroad is a game. There is a limited number of combinations of things that you can do. Do you understand what that means in the context of balance? I do not want you to state what you think it means, i want you to answer "yes" or "no". Lets see if you can do that.

Since your statement is imprecise, I would say yes.

I see you have not grasped the somewhat abstract concept of "why does not exist".

Because both classes are euros.

Again, it is not a question of "why". It is a question of balance.

They do not choose it. They try to tell you by using examples and so on. You can attack their arguments, but are not doing that. You are referring to different strategies while at the same time avoiding explaining why the situations described does not actually happen.

Well, that is a strong reason as to why he shouldn't leave.

Try not to look at yourself as the person who can decide what is balanced and what is not. Try to look at it objectively. Are their arguments true? Could it be that in the specific situations described, rouges or wizards or what ever it is, are overpowered?



My rhetorical question was not if he "knows", but if he is able to. There is a difference. If you try to answer my questions, do not misrepresent them.

In the end, it really comes down to what has been said. Invisibility/stealth + very high damage output makes it difficult to survive long enough to do anything. The argument that "well they don't have much hp, so you can one hit them as well" does not work because it is almost always the other way around.

How can chinese complement each other in a way that is comparable to euros? When you try to answer that, you will see the focus on team play and 1v1 for the different races.


Surely he would have some very strong arguments about the balance if that was the case. But what i said was not really if a person "chooses" to leave, it is if they are "forced" to leave because their character is so useless they can't actually play. Then yes, after listening to this person's reasons, i think one can conclude that it is a kind of "proof". In the specific case, this is correct, but you are generalizing it so it seems wrong, when it is not.

Whether or not this is a proof would have to be decided based on the actual reasons for leaving. I probably should have explained that more clearly.

No it is not.

Not if they can back it up.



I did not say their buffs. I was actually thinking of the base damage. That "signature" would change over time. It cannot be used as an argument to keep the current imbalances.


No it is not. You can buy a drug of "speedwalk", or you can get the bard subclass, which gives far more bang for the buck when it comes to running faster.

Where can i buy a drug of recovery division, mana skin, iron skin and bless?

Show shield is really an exception. It is useful. But it has a cooldown of 2 minutes, so any stealth or invisible player can easily one hit us anyway. The "ice guards", in comparison to euro buffs, are ridiculous.

Having ice buffs as a nuker implies a second skilltree. A rouge with bless is far stronger than those ice buffs.

And hits you first. And crits you for 30k. They use it for a reason - it pays off.

Not nearly often enough - part of the problem.


If there are several players involved, then it is not 1v1.

Except you never really get the chance.

Also if you want me to reply to any of your comments in the future, go here and learn something: http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/606/01/

I love every Chinese player that comes here saying Euros are overpowered. Guess you're too wrapped up in damage to realise skills you hva ethat could help.

First of all, Chinese have both weapon and force skills. You're a jck of all trades. Do you instantly expect to be the best at everything? Europeans are specialists. They excel in one area and one area only. In a wizard's case, nuking.

Now, onto your Stealth/Invisible argument. Combustion series. Fire tree. Use it.
Out of range argument. Phantom Walk. Lightning tree. Use it.
Spear/Glaive vs a wizard. Fanning Spear. Use it.
Blader/Sword vs a rogue. Castle shield series. Use it.
Bow, you have your extreme range as it is.

You get in close to a Euro, you one hit rogues and wizards. Warriors won't kill you if you think. Hit them with Stun, take them out.

In all reality, these unbalanced claims sprout from laziness. Just because YOU can't beat them, doesn't mean they're unbeatable. Just because you pres 123 hoping your combo/nuke hits first while standing still doesn't mean everyone else does.

The game has changed. Learn to think and strategise on the spot. Keep up or you will be killed.