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I expect to be good enough to be useful. How does that sound? As it's right now, i get one hit by wizards, rogues and 2-handers. I can one hit wizards, but not the other two. So there you have a case where two classes do more or very similar damage as myself, yet they have 2.5x the hp i have. Tell me how that is balanced without referring to strategy or parties.

Overall though, i think you are so incredibly biased that one really have to ask why you even post. You completely ignore an entire thread and then posts this trash.
Nope. They can have two trees. Hence they are specialists in two areas. Chinese can only be specialists in three areas, and those three areas have very little to offer compared to iron, mana skin and bless.
Range = 15. Rouge range = 18.
Lag. Target lock on. 3x my hp damage. No argument. Fact.
Wizard vs nuker. Dead nuker. Understand.
Rogue/cleric. Bless. Dagger. Vigor. Dead blader.
Sigh.
Yeah my s/s nuker is going to stun them.
You lack so much when it comes to basic understanding. Also, i don't really see any chinese build beat euros more than maybe 25-30/100.
I really don't know why you don't understand. It is not a strategic problem. You want it to be, but it isn't. Euros do too much damage and their buffs are too strong. What ever strategy you want to use, you will still at some point have to fight a character that will one-hit you 3 times over.

Really, Necrobat, you can tell me what it is you don't get, and i will explain it to you. I don't want to have to keep telling people that it is not a strategy problem. We should be way past that.

How come it is possible for a rogue with warrior sub to survive 20+ knockdowns + stabs (I'm not kidding you) from a same level blader? Yet, after all those knockdowns, he switches to daggers and owns the blader in 5 hits. How can that be? You tell me what is most likely (that means you shouldn't pick the one you want it to be):

1. The blader didn't use strategy.

2. The rogue does too much damage.

Most rogue are cocky in my experience they usually use daggers and and chinese do have range skills.


Ur nuker can kd


Ice wall cripples warlocks because they cant use debuffs or leech skills. Combustion cripples dagger rogues.

Watch the rogue and warrior in these vids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHu_EBahw0o sure the rogue kills, but chinese kill him more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbn_5IGe ... re=related

I know you guys will argue about this until we finally get the max cap and get some fully farmed people from both euro and chinese and get some more wealthy people to buy themselves npc sets and pvp so we know it's a leveled playing field....but who cares. We all know no matter how balanced the game is, in the end, when everyone uses the same strategy, level matters more than skill...if there is skill even involved in the pvp.

So to make you all less angry, go play Cabal Online get to lvl 50 in 3-4 days, duel 10 people, and after that, think about the difference between Cabal and SRO.
I am using cabal, because it's a good example of a balanced game.

In Cabal Duals (1vs1 PvP)
- No pots allowed (Their pots are instant with about 3 sec pot delay, if they were allowed you would need to use skills that double your dmg to even kill someone. People usually agree not to use those in duals)
- dmg is around 40-100 per hit, and skills are regularly about 1.5-2s cast times. (at 50 hp is around 450 for almost everyone.
- You can make your oponent lose target using some evasive skills.
- You can do combos, which increase dmg and speed of using the skills.
- lvl 50 can beat lvl 80 because of knockdown and stun on almost every skill, and the ability to use evasion tactics and combos to hit harder and faster.
- Farming makes you stronger...much more than level and equipment does because it lets you use higher lvl skills.

In SRO PvP (1vs1)
- pots galore
- death in 1-3 shots without pots
- otherwise fairly balanced, but really it's the overuse of pots that are a problem in PvP.
- Lvl and gear make all the difference.


Seriously, PvP without pots. You would be surprised how much more balanced the game is without pots....don't go PvP a cleric without pots now...lol.

to the original poster. my reply to your post is this : ur a noob now stfu.

Ok progress as i have to study for two tests tomorrow i have not had time to read your entire posts, but a few things i did pick up on was.

You yourself said chinese were made for 1v1 look a few posts above mine

Quote:
And where exactly does it say chinese are made for 1 v 1? Before euros came out, did they not party? did they not go out and union war or job?
I do not believe anyone said that it says somewhere that chinese are made for 1v1, so there is no guarantee that anyone can direct you to such "writings".

Quote:
How you ask? stop soloing them in pvp.

Chinese are made for 1v1. So if we can't solo them in pvp, does that not imply an imbalance, or at the very least some kind of problem?

As for my PaRaGraPhInG ScReW YoU i CaN TyPe HoW EveR The HELL I PLeASE. 1n F4c7 1 C4n Typ3 in 1337 1f 1 want to.

Who are you to tell me how i must type, and i could care less if you dont want to read my stuff ever again. Why? Because either way you're still gonna be ignorant of the facts, and think you're right. People have various strategies employed to kill euros. Why? i have been on all euro teams to try this when euros came out and started hitting high levels.

Quote:
As for progress, wow, thanks for pointing out that soemthing i said was irrelevant, might i add that by doing so what you stated added absolutely nothing to the debate either?
You may, but in doing so, you demonstrate that you fail to understand why i said it was irrelevant.

Sometimes, parts of discussions most be set aside to inform people that they are stepping outside of the subject being discussed.

Which is why i said it in the first place. To bring your attention to the fact that you are not discussing the main topic.

dannoob wrote:
You'd have spear nukers come out and stun you and then kb. Or a blader come out and kd.
Or you would have wizards coming out and one hits. Same with rouges. Annoying? You bet. This statement shows you lack objectivity.

So im not taking a stand here? Funny how you then go and accuse someone of taking a stand and having an opinion or being bias.

Overall though, i think you are so incredibly biased that one really have to ask why you even post. You completely ignore an entire thread and then posts this trash.

And once again who the Fck are you to tell any of us what we type is trash/crap. get off your high horse. The problem is not with the game but with those too rtarded to play with skill and strategy and too ignorant of the dynamics of the game.

As for the maker of the thread im glad to see at least he picked up on a few things and isn't being negligent of the facts.

If i feel liek it ill read what you wrote and maybe give a response as for now back t studying and reading the report a bot page.

I was also considering screwing up everything i typed just to piss you off, but its not worth it.

Dude... in case you guys (noobert mclagg too) haven't noticed... Chinese chars have this annoying skill-lvl cap that doesn't get raised even at 120cap... (assuming iSRO same as CSRO)

Those skills you mentioned are useful, if the Chinese chars were actually allowed to have them all at once.

Chinese nukers often can't survive first hits without snow-shield (which has longer cool-down than effect time). While keeping ICE maxed, there will be no room left for fire, lightning, and blade/spear skill trees.

If the skill-level cap for Chinese was like char_lvl * 4, then I might be able to use the strategies as suggested. Unfortunately for me, that's not he way it is.

The stealth thing, btw. Just a random thought... Why not give everyone stealth? Tactics will be much more important that way. It would definitely add a lot more uncertainty in pvp - FUN.

personally i think everyone takes this game to seriously.
and as a Chinese Char. Puritan i loathe the euro race with all my heart,
but there is benefit to them being around. Not only in job wars, pvp or parties
but simply as motivation. Chinese generally can't beat their own lvl of
euro classes wtihout Sun gear, but the fact that the game is so unbalanced
makes it that much more fun. I feel a new challenge, simply... Euros are
inspirational as many people have said and know they're godly! simply put.
I personally duting job wars & pvp try my best to find euro oponets because well
it's fun. Simply put SRO is a game, it's meant to be fun so
why complain about something that will probably never change, just enjoy the challenge.

and Chinese can beat their own lvl of euro... atelast some classes
my lvl 37 glavie can fight Wizards
my blader can fight 2-hand

just a few days ago i was pvping and a 2-hand KD'd my blader, i instinctivly thought
"ok it's over", but my blader blocked every hit i took while i was KD'd i know it was
just total luck, but being able to fight that two hand for 5mins was so much fun
even if the 2-hand had won.

I can understand where you're coming from, but people got too use to having the end-game skill cap from the start. They're promoting teamwork, which everyone should do. Europe's introduction showed that it has progressed beyond 1v1. Make a bunch of builds that work well together.

Progress you ignored majority of the points in my post and majority of your comments had no relevance to the post you quoted. As for the two classes, next time you see a warrior casting a nuke with a sword, be sure to let me know. You can't play both at once due to weapon restrictions.

Bless for rogue ISNT argument! Why? Because to cast it rogue has to change weapon(loosing stealth), casting it takes long time, it stays on rogue for 45 seconds and has 4min cooldown time.

Even if exactly all of them were cocky, the day they stop being so cocky, the balance problems will show themselves (again).

xbow = dead nuker. I got hit for 13k dmg without crit. But yes, I can KD and sometimes i will win because of that. But most of the time, it doesn't play out that way.

You know, I haven't said much about warlocks. And the main reason for that is because there aren't any high level ones on my server yet. So whether I consider them overpowered as well, that's something that remains to be seen.

I haven't watched those videos, and I'm not going to. Chinese can kill rogues. I don't deny that. But as I alluded to in an earlier post, the amount of protection a euro can get and the amount of damage they can dish out is just ridiculous.

The system Cabal uses sounds better, but I found cabal to be very "unpolished" compared to sro.

As for pots, Euros are not supposed to use pots at all basically. But as it is now, they seem to combine normal pots and vigors to survive for much longer. Before euro was released, JM could have changed the way pots work, but because of euros, pots are now something that regulates balance between the two races. And with the extreme damage of euros, chinese would basically be unplayable without pots.

Your skills are admirable. I hope they will help you on your tests.

I'm the person who had to unravel your bullshit. And, I'm the person who took the time to respond to your post.

Then you won't mind if I ignore the rest of your post.

They were not ignored. The problem is you don't want to agree or answer my questions because it proves you wrong.

I rebutted your every argument pretty much.

Warrior with rogue sub. However, since you did not include a quote of what I said, I can not be sure of what you are referring to. So Until you do, this is a logical fallacy. You are deliberately misrepresenting my point(s).

Yeah, the problem is, take 8 Chinese chars with 3 trees maxed and 8 Euro chars with 2 trees maxed. Go test and see how the party vs. party fight would turn out...lol...

The whole idea about one class covering the weaknesses of another requires the character of that specific build to EXCEL in one area. Chinese character are clearly not SUPPOSED to rely on each other AT ALL. Many Chinese skills are just the 50~70%-as-good version of the Euro ones. There are also tons of Euro skills against which there is no Chinese equivalent.

If Chinese character were supposed to rely on each other, then there'd be aggro-grabbing skills for glaivers/bladers and better damage multipliers for nukers.

Chinese fire tree has a skill with 15m detect range, but that 18 meter range of xbow is bogus.
I have never seen a xbow rogue use simple attack when coming out of invisibility.
The actual range of xbow is: 18m + 4m + 7m (long shot)= 29m

Yes, Chinese nukers may have KD or KB, but Euro rogues have KD and KB on their xbow skill set. Their skills also happen to require equal and often less time to execute than Chinese KD skill.

Yeah, Ice Wall sounds nice, but you have to get in position first, which means you'll probably have already been debuffed/cursed before setting up Ice Wall. Also, Warlocks can run away from the range or a ice-wall char. It would then be necessary to turn off ice-wall and chase...What is the point of that? Yeah, combustion cripples dagger rogues. However, since the skill-lvl cap isn't going up, Chinese chars will NOT have space for lit, ice, weap, and fire. Ice is a must for snow-shield. Lit for speed and damage % increase. Weapon for shield series and chains. Fire for combustion. This why I am saying that Chinese need higher skill-level caps to fight with Euros. The inferiority of each Chinese skill on its own can only be balanced out by a larger number of skills for the Chinese. At the current rate, Chinese chars will NOT have enough skill levels to get the skills they need to survive.

You may say that this might make Chinese slightly overpowered, but are Euro chars all about team play? Euro chars will still be almost impossible to beat when they are in good party with proper buffs.

Progress you said they can be specialists in two areas. I merely proved they can't be specialists in both at the SAME TIME.

No, you never even covered the fact I mentioned Fanning Spear or Castle Shield. Also forgetting that it's near instant cast. As for that scenario of the blader vs the rogue/warrior, if he had his sword out to use skins, switch and kill you in five hits he obviously got enough time to get his Desperate on. Not my fault you didn't keep the KD going afterwards where either a) he no longer had his super defense or b) after he lowered his own defense. WOW, I never thought that Euro sacrifice a lot. >___>

FFS Progress, if you can't deal with them, admit that YOU can't deal with them. But YOU doesn't reflect EVERYONE. They can be beaten, they have been beaten, they will continue to be beaten. If you can't do it, it's not our fault.

You did not prove anything. You made an imprecise and incorrect claim. Here is the quote:

Clearly, that is not entirely true.


Are you sure? Let's take a look.

There is a similar rebuttal to your "castle shield" argument. I believe you can find it yourself.

I clearly acknowledged your argument by commenting on it. Therefore, you cannot cannot say I "never even covered" it.

In your view, fanning spear would prevent a nuker from being one-hit. I'n my view, that may be true, but in reality it would not make such a difference that wizard vs pure int spear chinese nuker can be considered balanced.

First, to avoid misunderstandings, let me just mention that wizard's nukes are faster to cast than chinese nukes. This is not an opinion, this is a fact.

Here is how this would play out:

Alternative 1: If the nuker for some reason is lagged by 1 second or more, fanning spear will not be active when the first nuke hits. Result: dead chinese.

Alternative 2: If the chinese does have time to activate fanning spear, the wizard's first nuke will hit by the time fanning spear has activated. The chinese would at this point start to cast his own nuke. However, since the wizard's nukes are noticeably faster, the wizard would most likely hit first. This will result in a dead chinese.

Alternative 3: Fanning spear is already activated. Wizard and nuker see each other at the same time. Wizard's nuke hits first, chinese survives. Chinese nuke hits. Result: dead wizard.

Alternative 4: Chinese nuker does not have the fire skill tree due to the 300 mastery skill cap. The wizard is using invisibility, and attacks the chinese. The chinese has a window of 1.5 seconds to activate fanning spear. This is unrealistic. The wizard's nuke will hit, and the chinese will die.

All of these "scenarios" are, in my view, not equally likely to happen. Some kind of variation of alternative four is probably most likely - chinese looks away or blinks for 1-2 secs, wizard nukes and game over.

All of the above is really another discussion, however. Chinese vs euro balance is not primarily about strategy. I understand that a lot of people want it to be, since it would give their arguments some kind of real actual foundation, instead of consisting of variations of "if you do this, i counter you with this".

The main difference between euros and chinese is the pot delay. This brings up the question: how can it be considered balanced when the euros most of the time, one-hits the chinese int characters? This completely kills any advantage the chinese may have. As it is right now euros have an extreme advantage in party play, but they also have an extreme advantage in 1v1. In a balanced game, they should not be the best at everything.
Here is what happened. Warrior with rouge sub fought a blader. The euro started off as a 2-hander. They fought for quite a while. The euro kept using vigors in addition to normal pots, so the blader was unable to kill him (a euro should not be able to survive 50-60 hits). It ended when the euro KDed the chinese and while he was down, the euro switched to daggers and finished him in a few hits. There are a few issues here:

1. How can it be considered balanced when the blader pretty much must use knockdown skills and stabs, or he dies (judging by the extreme damage inflicted by the 2-hander, the blader needed the KDs to survive)?

2. If the euro has 1 hp left after activating any "extreme" skills, but always, because of that, wins. It is still imbalanced.

3. Do you mean that if he has time to use desperate, the damage he can dish out is balanced/justified? Well, it is not. It is part of the core problem. Euros do too much damage. The situation i described also shows the extreme difference in damage between 2-hander and rouges. If 2-handers are considered balanced damage wise, rogues can not. This also supports my argument suggesting that rogues and wizards are the most overpowered euro classes.

Again, the discussion is not about "if you do this, i counter with that". It is, in the end, a discussion of "how come, for one reason or another, euros usually win?" What has been done is simply a breakdown of what the actual problems are. And from what i see, the recurring problem is that many chinese ints die so fast they usually don't have any chance to fight back. Why do you think that is?

The difference between us, is that you accept a situation and assume that it is fair, whereas i analyze it to find out what is wrong. That is why i reach such a different conclusion compared to you.
Compartmentalization argument. You have no idea how many would feel correctly represented by my views in this matter.

They have indeed been beaten. But it doesn't happen often enough to say that the game is balanced. And I'm hardly alone when I say they are overpowered. Bottom line is that you want me to be wrong, so I don't take away from your "accomplishments". This is why you never answer my questions.

once again ive merely just glanced at whats been posted, because this argument has become a waste of time since you still wish to continue being ignorant.

1. How can it be considered balanced when the blader pretty much must use knockdown skills and stabs, or he dies (judging by the extreme damage inflicted by the 2-hander, the blader needed the KDs to survive)?

as for what youve said, its liek saying how is it fair that rogues must turn on crossbow extreme or dagger desperate to kill people, or how is it fair that they have to use kb/kd skills to win. its because its one of the main skills and oen of the mroe useful skills these characters have. or how is it balanced that wizards have to use nukes or they die? just think about what you said.

as well you continue to mention ya but theres lag. well its not the games fault that theres lag. perhaps get a better comp and you wont lag. and if you say its the games fault, since theres a high concentration of people or its the games fault since the servers suck. Well in that case then itd affect both groups, euro and chinese. Meaning not one group would benefit more.

Many buffs have "continuous hour", so sub-classes such as Cleric are can technically allow you to "specialize" in two areas at once.

Regarding cast time, lets take Cleric as example. The bless has 45 second duration, which is way longer than the 15 seconds of fan-spear/wall-shield. Casting time for buffs isn't that important to Euros since some Euro classes (rogue and wizard) have invisibility skills. Where casting speed does come into play, however, is weapon skills/nukes. Euro weapon skills and nukes hit a lot faster and harder than Chinese ones. The Euro skills also have a lot more abnormal status possibilities than most Chinese skills.

You cannot refer to something and expect it to be the exact same thing.

Why is it so hard for you to see things as they are?

Reread my post. When you understand, I will meet your argument.

If the lag interferes with gameplay, then it must be taken into account. The servers are in korea, as far as i know. Most people that play this game live in europe or the US.

Perhaps a better word for lag is latency. This is not something that is primarily caused by the client. Hence, it does not matter how fast my computer is.

Latency can affect you in more ways than one. Sometimes it will help you. For instance, if you attack first, then the player you are attacking will see your attack a 1 second later. This means that if he intends to activate castle shield, it will be active after your attack, even if your attack takes longer to execute. This is especially a problem if you get one-hit, then you are already dead before you get the chance to do anything.

Lag is not something that i expect JM will ever consider when they balance the game. But it wouldn't be such a problem if ints didn't get one-hit so often.

Bless cooldown is 3-4 min, fan spear/wall shield is 1 min. If you are casting a buff then you loose stealth. Of course you can cast before going into stealth, but it will probably end before you will attack anyone. More abnormal status possibilities? Only warlock has a lot of them, but thats his power...


Everybody says that rogue has very high damage, and for you still 2h hits "extreme" high damage?
And blader probably didnt know for what he has lighting chain and kds. While fighting euro bladers should only use kds(or sometimes lighting chain to put some states)


You mean that tankers existence is futile?

Yes.
Yes?

Should do and forced to do, are slightly different things.

No. I mean they are not supposed to survive for that long alone. This opinion is based on the pot delay.

Stop posting in this thread it fails pretty hard. It's taking up the space of a better debate thread too.

Like I see it,this will go on and on.Even though I agree with Progress i'd say nevermind him Progress,ignorant people won't get it till they experience firsthand what reality is.

Cast time again, the true advantage of the 45 second duration is that you get to finish ANY fight in that time. It won't RUN OUT on you, so it doesn't really matter if it has a 3 minute cool down, because you can choose when to activate to fight (stealth/invisible). By the way, when you activate bless, you don't need freaking stealth. You'd own anyone anyway. A decent protector Euro rogue with up-to-date bless can tank LOADS of damage. CE won't even be needed. They can just act as tanks for 45 SEC (TOO LONG) and dish out enough damage to KILL ANY CHINESE CHAR of their level(accompanied with KD and KB and supreme range). Honestly, don't tell me that you think any Chinese char can tank 15 skills from a xbow skills from a rogue. I've included videos in this thread that show glaivers taking over 15 seconds just to reach a rogue and then before executing one soul-spear.

In terms of abnormal status, I included KD, stunn, KB into this. Most legit players don't make it to lv80 in a short period of time. Xbow rogues have KD and KB all the way through, but Chinese bowers only get them at a very late stage in the game. The "more abnormal status possibilities" is tied into the faster attack speed. Both Chinese and Euros have KD, KB, and stun; however, the Euro characters have higher abnormal status possibilities because they can execute their skills faster. Hitting faster gives them more chances for their KD, KB, and stuns to take effect. Warlocks, too, have an excess of abnormal status possibilities. It makes then overpowered against any class in the rest of the game. There are tons of vids out there showing warlocks killing all types of builds while the other player is just sitting there in dismay. They can suck your blood, and they can stun you and slow you down for rather long durations. The fact that Warlocks are over-powered in 1v1 pvp applies to all characters, Euro or Chinese. Therefore, I do not generally tend to mention their pvp capacity in the euro vs Chinese game balance discussion.

Also, many people say Glaivers deal high physical damage, but 2HS doesn't deal CRAZY damage for you? It all depends on what you compare 2H to: more over-powered Euro char or gimped Chinese char? BTW... I think Progress knows how to use blade skills and is better at using his char than you. Its the same with everyone.

Another point. Saying that no character should be able to survive 50-60 skills from another without pot-spam isn't necessarily equivalent to implying tanks' existence as superfluous. The point is that if the Euro char can tank 50-60 skills from a Chinese tank, then the Chinese tank should also be able to tank 50-60 hits from a Euro 2HS. BTW...Making the assumption that Chinese characters are supposed to be more INDEPENDENT in pvp and pve, the Chinese tanks should be able to tank even more than the Euro tank. So, 100 hits? Is that the case currently?

The assumption that Chinese characters are supposed to be INDEPENDENT is mentioned by many Euro char players. This, directly or indirectly, resulted from their complaint about the POT DELAY. If you disagree with this assumption, then maybe you should also say that POT DELAY is not a disadvantage in pvp. If that was the case, then why should Euro characters have higher damage than Chinese characters at all? Why shouldn't the wizard have max 330% damage multiplier and equal weapon strength? (staff > spear)

Just to clarify a bit. The fight I used as an example was fairly even for a while. However, since the 2-hander hit crits for 10k on multiple occasions, I do feel that the blader was at a disadvantage to such a degree that he had no choice but to constantly go for knockdowns.

The reason I say a euro should not be able to survive 50 hits is because of the pot delay. A delay of 15 seconds should almost guarantee that if he can't kill the chinese fast, he will die. And taking the very high damage of euros into account, that is most likely how Joymax had intended it to be. But that's not what's happening. Warriors use iron skin and vigors to "refill" their hp during the fight. To me, this is starting to look like a loophole when some people seem to have just as many vigors as they have pots.

Overall, the 2-hander was basically toying with the blader. And in the end, the chinese got finished in a few hits when the euro switched to daggers. That really showed me how incredibly imbalanced rogues can be.

Btw, I play an int char, so I wouldn't have survived three hits from this guy.

FWX and progress, y do u even care so much. Does it really matter that much that at this current cap euros overpower Chinese. As u will see in future lvl caps, it will be the exact opposite. In time the game will balance itself out and euro's wont be so dominante.

I really, really also wonder why you care so much?

I have loads of fun pvping in battles. Course sometimes I get killed in 1 shot by some wizard in stealth, but whatever. The most annoying build right now I find bladers, not any euro build.

They might have there mighty buffs, but feck if there are a couple of them waiting on the outside of the gates I either get some euro friends to buff me. Or walk around and attack them from behind, or just go pvp somewhere else.

If you constantly play for the sole reason of being the strongest person around, you will fail. I play to have fun. Also I know how to play my build, and I have patience. I am pretty confident that I can kill any build around, just as they can kill me. I usually just walk out the gate, stay in safe zone a bit. Then circle around them until some person lose stealth/buffs/whatever and kill them then. Call it whatever you want, but IMO thats the purpose of an archer, snipe those who are strong but weak ^^.

Because the game is boring when you can't do anything. And the reason for it being boring is unacceptable.

It should be obvious why I care so much.

Are you against the game being balanced or do you still not understand what the problems are?

Try getting one-hit almost all the time.

Should you have to?

Avoiding the problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I don't think anyone plays for the purpose of not being as strong as possible. But that is not what this discussion is about.

I wouldn't mind losing every time as long as I know I can be competitive when I fight players of the same level. Right now, that is not how it is.

If one of the most abundant builds on the server can one hit you for 3x your hp, would it make a difference if you know how to play your build? If you can attack him, he can usually attack you. Unless of course we look at it from the other side, he can attack me, and I won't survive long enough to attack him. Fun?

+1 to Joymax.Im against it being balanced cause now Chinese players can bot all they want,get full sun (if even possible for mayority) and then get killed over and over again in capefights by well build euro's with +5 weapons or euros can own the fortress again und again like our good old friends on Venus did<3