Silkroad Online Forums

A community forum for the free online game Silkroad Online. Discuss Silkroad Online, read up on guides, and build your character and skills.

Faq Search Members Chat  Register Profile Login

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: [GUIDE]: To Farm or Not to Farm
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:27 pm 
Hi, I'm New Here
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 23
Location:
Venice
To Farm or Not to Farm - the counter guide
by blue and red
----------------------------------------------

Almost every guide I read and every person I talked to suggests that you farm until you saved up some ungodly amount of SP [I think either 30k or 150k] without doing any quest and just grind. Me and my friend [red] just don't like the idea of killing the same mob for moons [the game is boring enough with the simple quests], we don't really care to be the best of the best either. So we just been using our SP whenever we get them, we do use them to level up masteries evenly though. But since everyone else suggests this is bad, we wanted to find out just how bad this really is.

We collected some data [level, mastery, mob, exp, sxp], similar to this post. We also used the data from that other post.

Couple things I want to note first:
    400 sxp = 1 SP
    Champion gives 2X exp, sxp and giant gives 15X
    The ratio [exp/sxp] is different for each (level, gap) combination/configuration, and is independed of mob's level.
    SP needed to level up a mastery at certain level is same as to learn a skill of mastery level
    SRO has a balance system for character level and skill level, When your skill is too far behind, you will get more sxp, if your skill is on par with level then you will level up faster.
Eventually my friend came up with 2 formulas to fit the data:
Code:
exp/sxp = 0.234 *
          IF(level<=24;1;1+0.028125*(level-24)) *
          level *
          (1-0.0001*POWER(gap;4)) *
          POWER(1.23;-gap)
* this is same ratio srodatabank calculates

sxp = 105.894 *
     POWER(1.09;mob level - mastery level) *
     (mob level/char level) *
     POWER(1.0417;-lvl diff)
* this is only accurate up to mobs 7 level below you

The sxp formula had too many variables to be useful, but if you assume you always kill white mob then the formula simplifies to:
Code:
sxp = 105.894 *
     POWER(1.09;gap) *
     POWER(1.0417;-gap)

What this says is sxp suddenly only depends on your gap configuration.

I then compiled some more data so that I can make something of these formula:
    exp needed per level
    bonus exp and sxp from quests per level
    sp needed per level [since this is difference from build to build, i used my own build, which is about 6 skills per level on top of 3 masteries, and the total is similar to the magic number of 150k thats been floating around]
Image

From this graph you can see amount of SP you need is exponential, you need virtually no SP before level 10 and shoots up after level 65.

Using all of the above, I made a table that would map out my path from level 1 to level 70, using certain gap configuration. I decide at each level, how much gap I want, and it spits out # of mob to kill, amount of SP farmed, amount of SP used, etc. Then I played around with it using the 3 most common stratgy I have seen [as well as wether to do quest]:
    catch up: farm until you can learn everything at once, then farm again.
    farm ahead: farm everything you need early on, only use sp at level 5 for imbue.
    keep up: use SP evenly whenever you get enough.
And there some basic numbers:
Code:
       catch up   farm   keep up  catch up Q    farm Q   keep up Q
total gap     155      228      145      183          277       184
avg gap         2.2      3.3      2.1      2.6          4.0       2.6
# 0 gap          21      36        8        24           32        2
total mob
kill upto 70  101%     100%     92%       96%         95%        86%

Here is a graph of accumulative number of mobs killed as you level:
Image

While farming makes you stronger than other players later on [more levels where your mastery is same level as your character], you need to kill 14% more mobs than if you went with "keep up Q". There is one down side I am not showing in the table, that is for "keep up Q" to cap off mastery and skills after you get to level 70, you need to farm 94k more mobs, which is 23% of what you have already killed. But for non-hardcore player like me, [who doesnt care much about end level, in fact I will probabbly quit SRO before I get there,] keep up is much better and more fun. As can see from the graph by the time you get to level 30 with farming method, you could have been level 60 with keep up Q method. Also this shows bonus exp and sxp doesnt effect the balance too much, and you should definitly do them if you want to level up faster.


Edit:
updated my spreadsheet, but too lazy to recreate the table and graph, so here are some correction to numbers above:
instead of 14% less total mob compare to farming, its now 12%
instead of 23% more mob after lv 70, its now 27%
end by the time farmer reaches lv 32, keep upper will be at lv 57

Note:
I want to point out that all this is based the formula that we came up with that would best fit the data we have right now.

-the end-
---------------------------------------------

Thanks for reading :P


Last edited by Babyblue on Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:43 pm 
Hi, I'm New Here
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5
Just a quick correction and a couple of notes.

If you always kill mobs the same level as yourself, the sxp equation simplifies to:

sxp = 105.894 * POWER(1.09;gap)

as the level gap is 0. "gap" in this equation is your level - your highest mastery level.

Also, as you long as you start to farm up whatever sp you need such that you have all the sp you need at 70 just as you achieve level 70, the worst strategy requires only 5% more mobs than the fastest strategy. So mostly, you can farm sp whenever and it barely affects the number of mobs you need to kill.

The difference in level in the middle is dramatic though, spending sp as you get them can be over 20 levels higher in both level and mastery level than farming sp ahead for the same number of mobs.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:03 am 
Hi, I'm New Here
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3
lol wtf how did you do all of that stuff thats incredible its like a differeent language


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:03 am 
Regular Member
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 215
Location:
Xian
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

:? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

Mind if i dont get it ? Could so write down what it basicly means in normal english ? :P Cause i dont get it.... :oops:

Cheers

_________________
Mordecaie, Xian, LV 20, Full Str
Guild : Hoping for a place in BlackHand

Job : Reckless tourist, LV 3
Yeti Spotter, LV 3
Anti 1* Popper Activist, LV 4

Been at : Jangan, Donwhang, Ravine, Dead Ravine, Dunhuang Stone Cave, Hotan and i got to Karakoram and beyond ! Al without teleport !

Wil go to : Takla Makan, Roc Mountain, Heukmakdan Den, Tarim Basin, Dark Cave and whatever is coming !

Have beaten : Every mob to level 30

Mordecaie, Shadow Assassin, Bringer of Death


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:37 am 
Frequent Member
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1047
Location:
Xian
Only thing I think is a little confusing is the X and Y lines are labeled so I'm not really sure what they stand for. Other then that I think I get it and a lot of it makes sence. And leveling wise SP farming is a lot slower lol I don't need a graph to notice that I'm expericencing the ATM. :banghead:

PS Deserves a sticky, this is really something people should consider.

_________________
Image
Image
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:42 am 
Hi, I'm New Here
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 19
Location:
Athens
errrrr.sooo is sp farming good or bad

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:44 am 
Active Member
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 773
Location:
Troy
it's not bad OR good. it just depends on what you want to do. basically, you can farm a crapload of SP at the beginning, which takes quite a while, OR you can just keep a smaller gap throughout your leveling.

if you farm, you'll level faster later. if you don't, you'll level slower, but don't have to do it all upfront. just depends on how you want to play it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:32 pm 
Hi, I'm New Here
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5
SP farming has a slight benefit to getting capped fastest, but until you reach the end you'll be a lower level than someone that didn't SP farm and just kept a gap the whole way. It takes under 5% fewer mobs to reach cap farming all SP ahead starting at level 5.

The SP farmer will overtake the gap person in mastery level somewhere in the 60s (while they are farming up SP) and will overtake in level at level 70.

Overall, it doesn't make much difference when you get your SP. Early or late, it's your choice, the amount of killing you need to do is about the same.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:50 pm 
Hi, I'm New Here
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13
realy bice BabyBlue :love:

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:00 pm 
Valued Member
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 372
Location:
Alps
Well you wouldn't have to care about SP farming if you only used 1-2 masteries... We're talking about 4-5 masteries (me) I am seriously dying, the SP amount doubles every 10 levels for me.. 5k before lv 20, 15k lv32... 27k before lv42.. 160k before lv62. I'd rather commit suicide.

_________________
QUIT.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:39 pm 
Valued Member
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 355
Location:
Troy
its not that bad, jus leave a 5 lvl diff and kill green mobs, that is what I am doing right now.

_________________
Level: 6X
Weapon: Sword / Shield
Build: fire/light/force

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:50 pm 
Loyal Member
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1608
Location:
Troy
This is a lot of information, I love all the work that you have done. I personally do not mind farming sp. I think of it this way, more mobs you kill the more drops :D.

_________________
This is a game, You're invited. www.lost.eu/572c4
redneck wrote:
Holy crap how do u drop 1 gold piece?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:31 am 
Hi, I'm New Here
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 13
one thing the charts doest take into account is that the sp farmer, does so because of the intangblies,

it is easest to farm sp with a lvl gap.... because one does not spend as much time killing,,,,, nor using pots on lower lvl kills... all the while gaining sp at the same rate as spending it as you lvl up


yor killing things your own lvl getting around 105sp with more down time and pot expense then the sp farmer whose getting 105sp off lower lvl mobs using hardy any pots with 1-2hit kills

get it now why people sp farm ?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:38 am 
Casual Member
Offline

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 81
Location:
Babel
Dude, they put into the graph the exp farmer...-_-

Basically, it doesn't matter that much when you get you exp, there's only a small difference on how many monsters you have to kill. It's just that without farming you'd be at a higher lvl but with the sp amount of a farmer several levels lower (i think 20 it was) than you.

_________________
The meaning of life, is...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:42 am 
Frequent Member
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1351
Location:
Xian
shrug, if you stick with 4 skills total, you can keep a 0 level cap the entire game. You just have to up 1 skill per level, no more, no less.

2 level gap is fine with 6 or so skills

4 level i found that i could keep almost all my skills up to date.

shrug just an observation.

_________________
Lvl:6x
Image


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:40 pm 
Hi, I'm New Here
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 23
Location:
Venice
Alot of great responses ^^

If it wasn't clear in the original post, there is no easy answer to say farming is good or not, no method is much greater than other, hence there is room for debate.
It all depends on your play style, you want alot of SP to spare later in the game and be powerful from mid 30 on, then farm; if you just want to play the game, do quest, not grind and get to 60 fast then don't. The choice is yours.
Also even if you think you made the wrong choice, you still have time to farm and correct yourself, pretty much anytime til lv 60, because you no longer able to have max gap of 9.
If you only take on 3 masteries, which I think is very common, you only need to maintain at most 4 level of gap to keep up, thats learning 6 skills every level, total of 150k SP in the end.
But if you want to farm all those ahead, you need to farm until around lv 30 and save about 80k SP, then you will be home free with zero gap from then on.
As one of the poster noted, I assume you kill only white mob, but most farmer kill blue, that means you can one shot mob and save on pot, but you need to kill more, since blue mob give less exp/sxp over all than white mob.
Its pretty obvious that farming takes alot of time, but I wanted to point out exactly how much time that is, so people know what sort of deal they are getting themselves into.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:50 pm 
Common Member
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 104
Location:
Troy
Interesting read, but unfortunetely your model has completely ignored many facets of the game and has made assumptions which lead to incorrect conclusions.

1. You don't take into account how quick it takes to kill mobs - you only consider how many you need to kill. The reason people sp farm bandits, with specifically a SOS bow, is because of the very fast respawn rate and the fact they barely have to move to kill. This means they are able to kill at a quicker rate than later in the game when the mobs are more widespread and don't spawn as quickly.

So, although you try to justify the "keep up" scenario by saying you will have to kill 12% less mobs than a "farmer" scenario (before Lv60), in reality, the "farmer" easily makes up for this because they choose a location/time in the game to farm where they kill mobs at an amazingly fast pace.

In fact, I once went to bandits after a server restart and was absolutely swamped with mobs all around me - I literally was killing so fast I didn't have time to pick up gold/items (and didn't have a monkey at the time). It was absolute non-stop killing, with at least 2-3 enemies on me at all times - I was continuously on the verge of my death (but then again, I was using a sword, and just a +3 one at that). In all my time playing after that, I have *not even come close* to experiencing a situation where the mobs come that fast over an extended time period. Thus, even if the "farmer" has to kill 12% more mobs, it actually takes less time - having to kill 12% more mobs is a minor set back when you're killing 50% faster.


2. It's true that if you keep your mastery and exp levels equal, you will level faster. But this means you spend less time at each level, and so you gain less gold each level. Thus, when it comes time to buy new gear for the next level, you will have less gold than a "farmer" to spend. This results in a couple situations:

2a. Because you don't have surplus gold, you can't afford the more powerful, and cooler, items in the game. Honestly, in the early stages of the game you will be leveling so fast they won't be really necessary, but the higher level you go, the more that +3 weapon or item (and above) becomes a "necessity" as opposed to a "luxury". However, if a player chooses the "keep up" scenario they may find they barely have enough gold to even upgrade to +0 non-blue stuff at later levels.

Simply put, the "keep upper" has a limited gold supply because they level (and thus upgrade) so fast . . . and it sucks (e.g. not fun) when you're low on gold. On the other hand, the "farmer" makes bank at lower levels, and their large gold stash allows them to buy more powerful, cooler, items - which are more fun to have and use.

2b. Because the "keep up" scenario is low on gold compared to a "farmer" - the "keep upper" may have to start doing trade runs, scout the market for more deals, or grind on lower level enemies to make gold. While this is fine, the model doesn't account for this, and this would obviously slow down the progress of a "keep upper" compared to a "farmer".


3. You said your model was based on "6 skills per level on top of 3 masteries". Here are the problems with this:

3a. It takes 12,764 skill points to level one mastery from 0 to 60 *not including any skills*. For your 3 masteries, that's 38,292 skillpoints to get to level 60 not including skills. Thing is, your graph of "Average SXP vs. Planned" goes up to 5 million at the highest - but . . . for those 3 masteries alone you need 400*38292 = 15,316,800 skill exp. Not sure if you mislabeled your graph or something, but as of now, you're about 10,000,000 skill exp short *just for the masteries*, so that graph is totally meaningless.

3b. So only 6 skills and 3 masteries, huh? Well, the futher up in level you go, the less powerful you will be compared to a "farmer" of same level who has more skills. For example, it's unlikely you would ever be able to get the HP passive as a pure int if you only had 6 skills - but this skill helps you stay alive more, and gives you a much better chance in PvP. And that's just one example . . .

The fact is getting the skills is fun and beneficial. It's not much fun when you don't stand any chance (regardless of build) vs. someone your level cause your skills suck. And considering your graph above, I'm not even convinced you would have enough sp at Lv60 to get 3 masteries if you kept a zero level gap throughout until Lv60.


4. You don't account for time lost because your character is weak (from both lack of sp and lack of gold). The passives can really help you avoid death, as can having really good defensive items (and offensive items for that matter). But since the "keep upper" doesn't have a surplus of either of these, they are going to die more often - and 2% exp lost a death at higher levels can really add up. Related to this point is point 2b. But the model doesn't consider these factors at all.



5. In general, your whole premise is flawed because it doesn't include any discussion about your type of build. A 12% difference in number of mobs killed can easily be compensated for by choosing a build that kills fast. If you just want to level up as fast as possible, you would choose pure int spear (well, if you ignore the fact that pure int spear will die more often than pure int sword - which makes choosing spear debatable over sword, especially in the later levels).

But the irony in this is if you keep your skill and exp levels the same throughout with a pure int, a build that needs a lot of sp to really realize its full potential, you will end up with a weak ass pure int due to lack of sp. Thus, it's like you are purposefully making a character who will suck the higher level they go . . . and you are trying to get there as fast as possible! Why would you do that? How is that fun?

If you choose a pure str thinking you will need less sp - well, it takes longer to level than pure int - in fact, it seems it can take a lot longer. So although it may appear you will save time by choosing a pure str with minimal skills, you could probably build a pure int with decent skills in the same amount of time. The point? Talking about the number of mobs needed to be killed misses the big picture if you don't talk about type of build along the way, and thus how much time it takes.



In the end, the "keep upper" wants instant gratification, and will pay the price for that the higher level they go. The "farmer" is willing to delay gratification, and is rewarded with a more powerful character, has more gold, better items, and will still probably get to Lv60 before the "keep upper".

Why? Because the "keep upper" will probably never get to Lv60 . . . they will have problems buying good equipment (which is more necessary at later levels) because they have little gold. They will have minimal skills later in the game when they are more necessary and will struggle more because of it. If they actually play long enough to get to Lv60, they will be kicking themselves for not farming for just a couple weeks early on when it would of made more of a difference. In PvP they will be owned by almost anyone their level, regardless of build, due to lack of skills and pimp equipment. Basically, it's just a matter of time until they realize that trying to level really fast actually hurt them more than it helped them - and then they will either quit or have to start over.

Therefore, in the end, when it comes to your comment: "keep up is much better and more fun" . . . I completely disagree. It's not better, and it's only fun until you realize just how underpowered you are compared to people similar level.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:51 pm 
Common Member
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 109
Location:
Venus
very nice. i was wondering myself if farming does good later on or are they just about equal in the end -- i suppose this covers most of my questions. *goes on grinding with a small lvl gap*

_________________
IGN: zOgeL


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:58 pm 
Common Member
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 104
Location:
Troy
Babyblue wrote:
If you only take on 3 masteries, which I think is very common, you only need to maintain at most 4 level of gap to keep up, thats learning 6 skills every level, total of 150k SP in the end.


Uhm . . but a 4 level gap is even greater than the average of a 3.3 level gap you listed for the *farm* case. Thus, by your own data, that's an even bigger average gap than what you termed "farming".


Babyblue wrote:
Its pretty obvious that farming takes alot of time, but I wanted to point out exactly how much time that is, so people know what sort of deal they are getting themselves into.


Uhmm, no - you didn't point out how much time it takes at all . . . you presented the data based on number of mobs needed to be killed. Since there are a lot of other factors that affect actual time it takes, drawing any conclusions from # of mobs leads to an incomplete picture of how it really works.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:24 pm 
Active Member
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 745
Location:
Venus
I have kept a 4-6 level difference always. Have not needed to farm yet, and my total sp keeps going up. Good thing we have quests...

_________________
Image
O o
/¯____________________________ ______________________________ ___/
| I'M A FIRIN MAH LAZOOR! BLAAAAAAAAAAARGHHH
\_¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯  ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯\

Theseus - 3x


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:59 am 
Hi, I'm New Here
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5
Doru wrote:
Babyblue wrote:
If you only take on 3 masteries, which I think is very common, you only need to maintain at most 4 level of gap to keep up, thats learning 6 skills every level, total of 150k SP in the end.


Uhm . . but a 4 level gap is even greater than the average of a 3.3 level gap you listed for the *farm* case. Thus, by your own data, that's an even bigger average gap than what you termed "farming".


The average gap numbers are fairly meaningless. They are computed based on the average gap over all levels (not weighted by level length). The farm scenario has many 9 level gaps until about level 32 and 9 level gaps after that whereas the keepup scenario has a more consistent gap of around 3-4.

Doru wrote:
Babyblue wrote:
Its pretty obvious that farming takes alot of time, but I wanted to point out exactly how much time that is, so people know what sort of deal they are getting themselves into.


Uhmm, no - you didn't point out how much time it takes at all . . . you presented the data based on number of mobs needed to be killed. Since there are a lot of other factors that affect actual time it takes, drawing any conclusions from # of mobs leads to an incomplete picture of how it really works.


I think she was just using it as a gross approximation of time needed since a better time estimate is not currently available. Perhaps you would like to make one? Obviously, this overall analysis is a gross approximation. However, it is far more complete than any analysis I have seen argueing that farming is beneficial. Make of it what you will. In the end it's a game and you should do whatever you prefer and find most fun.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:58 am 
Hi, I'm New Here
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5
Doru wrote:
Interesting read, but unfortunetely your model has completely ignored many facets of the game and has made assumptions which lead to incorrect conclusions.


It's true that it ignores many facets of the game. That means that the conclusions could be correct or incorrect. I'd encourage everyone to make up there own minds. Probably the worst assumption is that # mob kills is a reasonable proxy for total effort. If someone wants to do a more complete analysis taking into account different times to kill mobs and different levels, I think that would be a good thing to do.

On the other hand, it is a more complete model than I have ever seen used to justify farming sp ahead. So far, my rather limited experience also doesn't justify farming sp ahead. Given no evidence I can look at that farming sp ahead helps and some evidence that it does very little, there is very little to debate. Either I take the word of the people that have played a long time or I go based off an incomplete model. Either one could be wrong.

Doru wrote:
1. You don't take into account how quick it takes to kill mobs - you only consider how many you need to kill. The reason people sp farm bandits, with specifically a SOS bow, is because of the very fast respawn rate and the fact they barely have to move to kill. This means they are able to kill at a quicker rate than later in the game when the mobs are more widespread and don't spawn as quickly.

So, although you try to justify the "keep up" scenario by saying you will have to kill 12% less mobs than a "farmer" scenario (before Lv60), in reality, the "farmer" easily makes up for this because they choose a location/time in the game to farm where they kill mobs at an amazingly fast pace.

In fact, I once went to bandits after a server restart and was absolutely swamped with mobs all around me - I literally was killing so fast I didn't have time to pick up gold/items (and didn't have a monkey at the time). It was absolute non-stop killing, with at least 2-3 enemies on me at all times - I was continuously on the verge of my death (but then again, I was using a sword, and just a +3 one at that). In all my time playing after that, I have *not even come close* to experiencing a situation where the mobs come that fast over an extended time period. Thus, even if the "farmer" has to kill 12% more mobs, it actually takes less time - having to kill 12% more mobs is a minor set back when you're killing 50% faster.


It is true that time to kill at different levels is ignored. Until someone models this, everyone will just have to decide whether that invalidates the model completely or not.

The 12% fewer mobs was to reach level 70 using a strategy which farms some of the xp at level 70. I would actually advocate starting any extra farming needed such that you have just enough when you reach level 70 to get what you want. If you want to talk about mobs to reach level 60, keep up strategy reaches level 60 in 32% fewer mobs than farming all the sp ahead. In all scenarios we have looked at, if all you care about is number of mobs to reach level 70 with all the sp you want, you are better off farming ahead. If you care about when you reach the intermediate levels, using a keep up strategy will reach intermediate levels sooner with only a small penalty in total mobs to having everything at 70.

It is an advantage of farming ahead that you can exploit an especially good weapon for longer without upgrading. I have had plenty of situations even without a server reboot where just standing in one place I get a continuous stream of mobs. It was actually kind of annoying that I couldn't pick up my gold and had to run away if I wanted to rest.

Doru wrote:
2. It's true that if you keep your mastery and exp levels equal, you will level faster. But this means you spend less time at each level, and so you gain less gold each level. Thus, when it comes time to buy new gear for the next level, you will have less gold than a "farmer" to spend. This results in a couple situations:

2a. Because you don't have surplus gold, you can't afford the more powerful, and cooler, items in the game. Honestly, in the early stages of the game you will be leveling so fast they won't be really necessary, but the higher level you go, the more that +3 weapon or item (and above) becomes a "necessity" as opposed to a "luxury". However, if a player chooses the "keep up" scenario they may find they barely have enough gold to even upgrade to +0 non-blue stuff at later levels.

Simply put, the "keep upper" has a limited gold supply because they level (and thus upgrade) so fast . . . and it sucks (e.g. not fun) when you're low on gold. On the other hand, the "farmer" makes bank at lower levels, and their large gold stash allows them to buy more powerful, cooler, items - which are more fun to have and use.


I question the validity of your model. It is true that the farmer will be spend more time at the lower levels and collect more gold while at those levels. However, while the farmer is killing those low level mobs, the keeper upper is killing higher level mobs. In my experience, higher level mobs seem to drop more gold and they certainly have more valuable drops. So at least on a per mob basis, the keeper upper will be getting more gold per mob killed. Whether there is enough speed difference in killing mobs to make up for this, I can't say. But I find it extremely unlikely given that a single weapon drop from even mobs in their high 20s can fetch 50k in a stall. The drops from low level mobs simply aren't that valuable. I assume that the value of drops only goes up with level. You are preloading gold but doing it at a slower rate than you can acquire it later. In addition, the farmer actually levels faster starting at lvl 34 or so (although they are very far behind in level at that point), so the farmer actually gets less gold/drops from mobs above that level.

Doru wrote:
2b. Because the "keep up" scenario is low on gold compared to a "farmer" - the "keep upper" may have to start doing trade runs, scout the market for more deals, or grind on lower level enemies to make gold. While this is fine, the model doesn't account for this, and this would obviously slow down the progress of a "keep upper" compared to a "farmer".


I don't believe that the keep up scenario results in gold shortage. In the unlikely scenario that the keeper upper runs low on gold, they can simply farm up some gold by letting their gap raise until they feel comfortable again. It's not a hard and fast rule that you have to keep up always. You can keep up most of the time and let your gap raise from time to time if you want more sp or more drops before leveling again. The point is that it doesn't slow down the rate of sp gain overall (in terms of # of mobs) to order it pretty much however you feel like.

Doru wrote:
3. You said your model was based on "6 skills per level on top of 3 masteries". Here are the problems with this:

3a. It takes 12,764 skill points to level one mastery from 0 to 60 *not including any skills*. For your 3 masteries, that's 38,292 skillpoints to get to level 60 not including skills. Thing is, your graph of "Average SXP vs. Planned" goes up to 5 million at the highest - but . . . for those 3 masteries alone you need 400*38292 = 15,316,800 skill exp. Not sure if you mislabeled your graph or something, but as of now, you're about 10,000,000 skill exp short *just for the masteries*, so that graph is totally meaningless.

3b. So only 6 skills and 3 masteries, huh? Well, the futher up in level you go, the less powerful you will be compared to a "farmer" of same level who has more skills. For example, it's unlikely you would ever be able to get the HP passive as a pure int if you only had 6 skills - but this skill helps you stay alive more, and gives you a much better chance in PvP. And that's just one example . . .

The fact is getting the skills is fun and beneficial. It's not much fun when you don't stand any chance (regardless of build) vs. someone your level cause your skills suck. And considering your graph above, I'm not even convinced you would have enough sp at Lv60 to get 3 masteries if you kept a zero level gap throughout until Lv60.


This was completely unclear the way it was posted. The model is calculated based on spending for 6 items per level where 1 item is either a mastery level gain or a skill gain. So under the model, you could have three masteries and get 3 skills per level. The graph shows the sp used per level. It is NOT cumulative. If you want the total sp used, you need to integrate that graph. The calculations are based on the plan values which uses a total of 153,413 sp or 61,365,200 skill experience points. The rest of your argument is based off of an incorrect interpretation of the admittedly vague posting. I will note though that the keeper upper will not have a 0 gap while leveling, it will be more like 3-4. This is not calculated off of a terribly skill starved build. 3 masteries and 3 skills PER level seems fairly reasonable. In any case, I don't believe changing the total number of sp used changes the basic conclusion. Using more sp just means the farmer farms longer and the keeper upper has a larger gap.

Doru wrote:
4. You don't account for time lost because your character is weak (from both lack of sp and lack of gold). The passives can really help you avoid death, as can having really good defensive items (and offensive items for that matter). But since the "keep upper" doesn't have a surplus of either of these, they are going to die more often - and 2% exp lost a death at higher levels can really add up. Related to this point is point 2b. But the model doesn't consider these factors at all.


I disagree with both of your weak from sp and gold conclusions and hence disagree that the keeper upper dies more often. Certainly, if either of these holds, than the keeper upper would probably need to kill lower level mobs at each level which would slow down leveling, but only if those hold.

Doru wrote:
5. In general, your whole premise is flawed because it doesn't include any discussion about your type of build. A 12% difference in number of mobs killed can easily be compensated for by choosing a build that kills fast. If you just want to level up as fast as possible, you would choose pure int spear (well, if you ignore the fact that pure int spear will die more often than pure int sword - which makes choosing spear debatable over sword, especially in the later levels).

But the irony in this is if you keep your skill and exp levels the same throughout with a pure int, a build that needs a lot of sp to really realize its full potential, you will end up with a weak ass pure int due to lack of sp. Thus, it's like you are purposefully making a character who will suck the higher level they go . . . and you are trying to get there as fast as possible! Why would you do that? How is that fun?

If you choose a pure str thinking you will need less sp - well, it takes longer to level than pure int - in fact, it seems it can take a lot longer. So although it may appear you will save time by choosing a pure str with minimal skills, you could probably build a pure int with decent skills in the same amount of time. The point? Talking about the number of mobs needed to be killed misses the big picture if you don't talk about type of build along the way, and thus how much time it takes.


I assume that most people choose a build and then try to level it. The fact that it takes some builds longer to kill mobs than others has absolutely no bearing on the conclusions. A slow killing build will be a slow killing build for both the farmer and the keeper upper. A fast killing build will be a fast killing build for both the farmer and the keeper upper. If you only care about leveling fast, obviously you want a fast killing build. That 12% difference was to level 70 where the farmer has already had significant time to catch up. The 32% difference at level 60 is harder to make up. The farmer needs to kill 168,033 to reach level 40 (mastery level 40). After killing 168,033 mobs, the keeper upper will be at level 58 (mastery level 54) and need 3,803 mobs more to level (or about 1/4 of the level). The suggestion is not to keep character level and mastery level the same throughout, the suggestion is to keep a fairly constant gap and just get the sp needed as you go.

Doru wrote:
In the end, the "keep upper" wants instant gratification, and will pay the price for that the higher level they go. The "farmer" is willing to delay gratification, and is rewarded with a more powerful character, has more gold, better items, and will still probably get to Lv60 before the "keep upper".

Why? Because the "keep upper" will probably never get to Lv60 . . . they will have problems buying good equipment (which is more necessary at later levels) because they have little gold. They will have minimal skills later in the game when they are more necessary and will struggle more because of it. If they actually play long enough to get to Lv60, they will be kicking themselves for not farming for just a couple weeks early on when it would of made more of a difference. In PvP they will be owned by almost anyone their level, regardless of build, due to lack of skills and pimp equipment. Basically, it's just a matter of time until they realize that trying to level really fast actually hurt them more than it helped them - and then they will either quit or have to start over.

Therefore, in the end, when it comes to your comment: "keep up is much better and more fun" . . . I completely disagree. It's not better, and it's only fun until you realize just how underpowered you are compared to people similar level.


The price later on is about 5% more mobs total which kicks in pretty much when you reach level 70, not before. I already pointed out major flaws in your weak on gold and sp theory so I won't rehash that here. The keeper upper is more likely to get to level 60 simply because it will take far fewer kills (and almost certainly time) to do so. If they do get to 60, they can simply farm whatever sp they want then at less than a 5% penalty which as you noted is easily swamped by other factors. In PvP, they will be slightly weaker than a farmer of the same character level due to being slightly behind them on skills (about 4 levels), but they will be much stronger than a farmer that has killed the same number of mobs due to being much higher level and having a higher mastery level.

So, in conclusion, keep up gives you much more now with a very slight penalty at level cap. More fun is strictly a matter of opinion. I find keep up to be more fun and I don't think it makes you underpowered. In fact, I think it makes you more powerful for most of the game for a given amount of time invested.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:51 am 
Hi, I'm New Here
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 17
Did you use matlab? :P


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:46 pm 
Hi, I'm New Here
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 5
demon_angel wrote:
Did you use matlab? :P


I used OpenOffice spreadsheet. I think BabyBlue used Excel.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:47 pm 
New Member
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 42
*Moved here http://www.silkroadforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=49047#49047

_________________
b00N


Last edited by Jinx on Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:50 am 
Casual Member
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 92
Location:
Xian
intesresting thread, i'm currently trying to farm but i only do a bit a day, i'm what you call a more casual player seeing as i've gotten rather bored of SRO lol, but leaving a gap isn't such a horrid idea either, to each their own, i guess i'll try to keep farming untill i get really annoyed then i'll just start pouring it into the skills

_________________
IGN - The_Bhai
Server - Xian
Level - 4X
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Is you play the games or the games play you
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:13 pm 
Hi, I'm New Here
Offline

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1
Is you play the games or the games play you.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:16 pm 
Loyal Member
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1572
Location:
Venus
One thing I wanted to note was that after sp farming, you can do a 0 lvl gap up to where it runs out. This means suddenly faster lvling where if you were to have to do it the "keep up" method, you would have more things to fight in the end.

Unfortunately, I got myself into a situation where I like to pvp. My bow char was a hybrid, and ultimately, was not good for pvp. So now I am sp farming a lvl 27 with a 6 lvl gap. It is a little tedious, but after seeing some data on the charts above, I am more inclined to sticking to my sp farming. I figure that after I am done, I should hit a good lvl in no time.

Hopefully it will turn out right, so that this was not a complete waste of my time.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:21 am 
Casual Member
Offline

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 79
Um i didn't bother to read all that it seem like your intentionally trying to confuse people and that graph look off. But let take your point and granted that you are right.

1. Your absolute right in the lvl system that is build around the number of mob kill. due to the XP/SP distribution the way this game work is according to the number of mob kill regardless of how you play, you have to kill X number of mob. Simply put at when you farm u lose % wise of exp in set of 10% at a time.

2. You need to kept in mind that people doesn't "jsut" farm at low lvl over farming at later or "keep up" but more specifically they farm at lvl 16, with a bow, at 9 lvl gap and at bandit archer. There have been countless debate and calculation and it is proven that farming some sp at that specific place will improve your lvl and stat and evrything else.

3. people fam not to play a 0 lvl gap, no one do that, they play with a gap but a much smaller one.

I would like to add:For str build having that extra SP mean a world of different becuase you can play at 1 mastery higher then normal and that will account for the 2 skill kill. If you have play STR build you know that for some reason at any lvl you alway hit mob to 10% or less hp in 2 skill and it won't die making you use a 3rd skill for no reason, so your force to fight Either much weaker mob to pull 2 hit kill or fight harder mob to do 3 skill kill.

_________________
Athen
IGN: kick_ass
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:18 pm 
Advanced Member
User avatar
Offline

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2446
Location:
Off Topic
Woah woah. There is way to much to read here so im just gonna ask a question, A short answer would be nice.

At the moment i am lvl 32. And i am only using the spear/glaive mastery and fire (i have force and lightning at lvl 11 but im colleting cursed hearts so they might be going down soon).

The spear/glaive mastery is up to lvl 32 and fire is up too 30. I have 3 skills in fire (including passive) and 4-5 in glaive (includign passive).

do you think i would need to sp farm to keep this up? I already tried twice, got to a 5 lvl gap both times before i got bored and wanted new skills.

_________________
ImageImage


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group