Silkroad Online Forums

That is not what I think. It is an issue of relative balance for what you get. Do you understand?

time to kill = (HP - dmg rate)/(dmg rate - regeneration rate) + 1

euro 2x dmg
chinese 4x pot faster

which is better?

What my comment of 'you don't get it' referred to was the fact the dynamic of the game has changed drastically since the introduction of Euro characters. This game is now geared far more to group opposition on the Euro side vs the Solo play that everyone was used to the Chinese side.

You're claims that 'Target Lock' instead of AoE template designators makes this game a 1v1 game vs a group play game makes absolutely no sense. If this were the case then every MMO out there that enabled single target functions vs AoE template functions would be purely 'solo play' games.

If this game is not geared towards party fighting and party play - then why do higher tiered Euro spells become AoE/Multi-target? Isn't the essence of AoE's whether or not they are -target- vs -template- designed to fight -groups- of enemies?

I know it may be hard to grasp that the dynamic has changed and maybe you used to own at 1v1 dueling outside s gate, but those days are long gone when you begin to look at the competitive levels of pvp in this game now.

As to 'chinese support' if you can't figure out how to design a support character using the chinese skills that's your problem unfortunately. Chinese powers have an amazing versatility that allows for quite a few solid support templates. The only problem being those templates will never own 1v1. If you can't learn how to adapt the Chinese templates into a group play style you will continue to get slaughtered by the Euro players.



Vs -every- chinese player who can grind or bot easily provided they have enough pots in their inventory and their equipment doesn't break. I'm not claiming that Euro Botting doesn't happen - but the ability to solo grind on equal level mobs on the Euro side is relegated to a much smaller contingent than the Chinese side and you know it.



In order for a Wizard or a Rogue to 1-hit you they have to enable skills that open them up to being 1 or 2 hit just as easily. Yes, Wizard's nukes tend to have a faster casting time than Lightning nukes. But if your strategy merely consists of standing there spamming the "OMG NUKE HIM" button then no wonder you're complaining about losing so often.

The fact of the matter is that the Chinese characters have -multiple- ways to deflect or nullify a fair portion of a Wizard's nuke damage. -Any- chinese character has that potential it's just dependant on whether or not they allocate the points to those skills or assign members of their group to those tasks is up to them.



How is not knowing the build of your opponent irrelevant. You complain about 'cookie cutter' builds on the Chinese side but the Euro side is somewhat 'forced' into those Cookie cutter builds. The only reason Euro builds are cheaper is that most people forgo skills that are potentially very useful just to have a cheaper build faster. Even some of the better guides on here ignore skills that are extremely useful to group play to try and par down enough SP to get 'into the fray' faster.

Every Chinese Player can pretty much glance at the Euro class tab and know what's coming. Even recognizing a Chinese player's weapon - it pretty much identifies only if he's a Physical vs Caster. It by no means gives any definition of what skills he has available until he starts to use them. That's a very distinct advantage and if you can't recognize it... well I feel for you.



Have you tried Progress? I find your forum name a bit ironic because you seem to be fighting Progress instead of supporting it. Have you gotten a group of players together and tried to build a Chinese group based around group player or do you just take the same old 'Chinese Cookie Cutter' -solo- templates and wonder why they aren't working vs the group oriented Euro pvpers?



Yes, both Wizards and Rogues have some of the strongest burst damage out there. If you let them get first strike on you and they bust all their enhanced damage skills they will most likely kill you. Again you're talking about 1v1 play when group oriented play is the real focus here. So you get 1-shot - if you're running with a good group you get rez'd nearly immediately or you spot the Euro coming and throw up an appropriate barrier to buy yourself time until your group members can work to nullify/cc/and take down the opposing players.

I'll tell you right now that most Casters and most Euro Dagger rogues fear good Chinese Bow characters and for good reason. A skilled Chinese Bow character can utterly destroy them.

This whole game is about checks and balances now and not just about who's got the biggest Epeen from being a duel-master. If you can't learn that and adapt you'll continue to be frustrated and fail at pvp.



No what I said was exactly what I meant. Every chinese character has the easy option of solo'ing via Pot spam. A much more limited Euro contingent can solo and usually not nearly as effectively due to CD. We're talking Even to greater level mobs here and not sitting there farming mobs 3+ levels below you.

I consistantly farmed mobs that were 3+ levels above me on my Chinese character and had issues only when I ran into multiple party/giant/etc.

I'd take the ability to easily farm XP/SP over being often forced to find a group for a decent xp/time ratio and hoping that at least 1 or 2 of them aren't total tards.

More than half the time in a Euro pick up the clerics end up dead because someone else in the group doesn't know how to play their class/role. Chinese have the luxury that you're not forced into this quandry.



Point being there are some viable defenses available vs both physical and mag damage that are relatively easy to attain on the Chinese side. If you want to be immune to both mag and physical dmg sorry... we're not in the world of 'happy go lucky I'm an invincible superhero' game here. You pick and choose what strengths and weaknesses you want to have and in the case of a Euro pick your class and in the case of Chinese pick your elements to decide how it's going to work.

I'll tell you right now I'd take my Warlock/Cleric over my Wizard any day of the week... Sleep/Stun/Wheel Bind alone.



But you're complaining about classes being to overpowered. Warlock was a mere example - every Euro class has almost the same glaring weakness available that the Chinese build can exploit... if they are built that way.



This might make sense if we all assumed that Euro's are overpowered in 1v1. Yet, you keep harping back to Wizards and Rogues, Wizards and Rogues. That hardly comprises the entire Euro Class sphere. And in fact a chinese group designed to be a 'group' can and will destroy those threats with ease. Low hps are fatal on either side...



How is a Chinese nuker able to 1/2 shot a Euro irrelevant. Your complaint was that Wizards and Rogues had the potential to 1 shot you as a Chinese player. I think the fact both sides can do so is highly relevant.

Also, just because you don't fell like 'spending money' on pots doesn't mean your healing/mana replenishment advantage doesn't exist. You're trying to dodge the real point that it's a distinct advantage in pvp and unless the opposition is rolling very Warlock heavy (I've yet to see or hear about a server with a heavy high level warlock pop) it's going to be an advantage you continue to carry.

It's not my fault if you won't be willing to prepare for pvp... if you don't want to spend money on pots that's a choice -you- made. Don't come crying to the boards about how unfair it is because you won't take advantage of it.



Hello... Mcfly. Wizards and Euro Dagger Rogues can be as easily 1/2 hit. Especially if they are set up for damage output - they become wafer thin hp wise. I fail to see how this is different on either side.



I see reality - which is people have to adapt their builds and playstyles since the introduction of the Euro. If you can't adapt then you'll continue to be bitter in your failed pvp endeavours. If you're not willing to experiment to see how Chinese group synergy can succeed that's on you. I'm not going to walk you down the primrose path on how to build a Chinese group.

I will tell you I run with a mid-level Chinese group that has had a -lot- of success against Euro players and Euro groups. We're not standard 'cookie cutter' builds and we've had to sacrifice SP and rebuild a few times tweaking over and over to get it where we want. We're still working and adjusting... but you know what. We wouldn't have any success if we just gave up and cried that Euro are to powerful.



I fail to see where "exploiting" has anything to do with my statements... talk about a vapor based argument.

I'm not saying the -individual abilities- should not be adjusted for game balance. Those do exist. But to claim this broad cry of 'Euro's are all imbalanced and to strong because I can't win 1v1 and be Duel-Master supreme' is just laughable and making a mountain out of a mole hill.

^do u have to write too much? :S

I want to quote that all above me!!!!

Huh... chinese own euros, they always did!!

It certainly makes it far more focused on 1v1, than otherwise.

Purely? "Solo play" covers a lot of ground. Be more specific. This is somewhat of a strawman you are trying here, so I think you should just drop it.

You are trying very hard to sway from the real points I'm making. The essence is whether you must have a target or not. That's the only part that is related to my point, really.

As long as chinese exist, the dynamic cannot change in such a way, or to such a degree, that chinese are useless by themselves (this is really what I'm seeing). I have to remind you, this is not a discussion of party vs party.

Are you suggesting that i need to play two characters? That is not viable.

Be more specific.

Quite a problem for a character "designed" for solo play, don't you think?


It is not a question of learning. It is a question of viability and/or possibility.

The actual number of classes that can do this is not what we are discussing. I don't see how this comment changes anything. My claim of "overpoweredness", is, to a certain degree, limited to rogues and wizards. I think bless might be overpowered as well, but that's another discussion.

No. Not just as easily. As a defensive nuker, I'm not able to consistently one hit a same level rogue. Add in stealth, invisibility and that wizards nukes are faster, it is not the same. This completely negates any advantage a chinese has by being able to use pots faster. From a balance perspective, rogues should probably be able to crit very hard while their normal attacks should do very little damage. As for wizards, their nukes should be a lot "slower".


Since a wizard certainly will "spam the nuke button", and i will get one hit, why should I not do the same? In 1v1, or even in a party, if you end up "fighting" a wizard, either he one hit you, or you one hit him, there is not going to be anything in between, unless there are bufs involved. But since wizards are faster, i will mostly lose.

If you couldn't "lock on", then things would have been different. Then you could have had strategies and running would actually make a difference. But as it is now, he nukes you, and you're dead.

When you get hit for 3-4x your hp (or more), there isn't really that much you can do. Also, consider the SP requirements. I understand that you really, truly, want to believe that there is a lot a chinese can do - so that you don't take away from your own "accomplishments".

No. You misunderstand.

Yes. And that is part of the problem. They are too strong considering how simple their "build" is.

Why don't you tell me what I can do when I know I'm going to get one hit?

The question is why does it matter what skills he will use? Either you one hit him, he or doesn't one hit you - gives you a chance to do something.

Perhaps when you understand, you will have a different opinion of my name.

It doesn't work that way. Chinese are designed for solo play. Most chinese will get the skills that will help them to grind alone. Again this is not what we are discussing.

How can i stop it? Thats the whole problem. They do too much damage, their attacks are too fast and they got invis/stealth. That is why they are overpowered. This is really what you are trying to refute. This is the actual core problem.

You want this to matter more than anything so you can claim its about strategy. But for chinese, 1v1 also matters. What you have is really a lvl 80 human shield that will die once the fighting starts, just so another chinese can try to do some damage.


Lets assume the group is chinese. Who has res?

Euro should fear all chinese in 1v1. Euro should have the advantage in a party. That is clearly JM's idea. However, they made rogues and wizards way to strong. Rogues even have skills that have a higher percentage than nukes. For a strength char, that is just ridiculous.


So this means i should get one hit and not being able to use my "advantage"? What good does pot spam do when i get hit for 4x my hp?

This a completely different discussion.

Yes, "we" can grind to level 80 and get one hit by invisible players. You really feel your "potspam" advantage. You should try it some time.

Compare those to bless and they are almost useless except for snow shield. Bottom line is that no euro, without a party, should be able to one hit a chinese. With exception for wizards, but their attacks are way too fast, so they are imbalanced because of that.

Don't strawman me.


I'm complaning that rogues and wizards are overpowered. There might be other things that I would consider overpowered as well, but those two are the main problems. They completely nullify any advantage chinese have.


This is so extremely generic that it is not even a rebuttal. I can only say that sooner or later you will see parties with 6 rogues and two clerics. That will throw any kind of euro vs chiense balance that may remotely exist right now, out the window.

You claimed that since chinese nukers could one hit a wizard, nuker vs wizard would have been balanced. But you failed to take into account the speed of the wizards nukes and invisibility. Rogues have a lot of HP, i can't one hit them, they can one hit me three times over (without crit). How is that balanced?

How can it be an advantage if i get one hit?

You do not understand. It's is not a question of if i choose to do something. It is a question of balance. Why should i have to spend millions on these types of pots when you don't have to? I wouldn't mind this if they weren't actually useless and so expensive. But now they are, so that becomes a problem.

Their advantage is very limited.

Wizards should get one hit. Rogues are far less likely to get one hit. And don't try to sneak in "1/2" here. If someone needs two hits, then things are very different. That means you have at least a chance to hit him back.

Except when things are imbalanced - there is nothing you can do. I have noticed that many people find this concept to be completely alien. They think that just because the game is "released", any problems that are found are always a result of people not using the correct strategy or the like. You have that problem as well.

Try to understand that this is a game and there are not an unlimited number of things you can combine.


Some people notice imbalances faster than others.




Here is what you said:

Do you see now?

It should be quite clear by now that i almost exclusively refer to wizards and rogues when I claim "overpowered".

I love seeing you trying to say they're overpowered, but you kinda shot yourself in the foot by admitting you just spam the nuke button.

Ok, Euros may be able to one hit you in 1v1 PvP. But did you stop to THINK you MIGHT be able to use strategy? THIS is what I pointed out in my last post. You come here, claiming Euros are overpowered, yet you don't even THINK or LOOK for a possible means to defeat them other then claiming their players as noobs and the race as overpowered.

Now if you actually understood the meaning of my last post, you would have noticed it shot your entire argument down in flames. It did not cover party play, but 1v1. Ways Chinese can easily defeat the "overpowered" Euros. Phantom. Once they cast their nuke (the raising of the staff) they're locked onto the spot. Phantom away, run to them, chain/spear/shoot them. They're dead. NO PROBLEM. Guess what it took? Timing and strategy. Not sitting in the same spot spamming 123 praying you're going to get in faster.

Your point about rogues, their standard attacks are WEAK. The only strong point they have is quick skill cooldown to use them in a serie over and over. They're still not invincible. Phantom, attack. if they're crossbow, they have no HP. You should be able to push them and they'll die. If they're daggers, congrats, you got out of their way, you can now nuke and kill them. OMG TIMING AND STRATEGY. Liek omgz this game requires no skill.

I covered the stealthing in my previous post too. You have a skill in the Fire tree. Was put into the game after Euro was introduced. I suggest you use it if you hate it so much. That or buy the pills.

As for what Lionsden is saying, I understand it quiet clearly. Chinese are designed to be versatile, Euros are focused. Therefore, isn't it natural that a focused character would excel more in that one field? Unlike Chinese who can do anything they want. But just because they have weaker attacks doesn't mean they can't beat them. Euros, being specialised, have weaknesses. Chinese, being variant, can cover these weaknesses and exploit them on their own. I seriously believe you need to spend more time in a job war situation, or a place where it actually counts. Not hanging around south gate all day going , "No snow shield noob"

guh, what a mess...

Ok, this should be obvious, but does every skill have a range? Here's an example:

Does a Chinese char get phantom/grasswalk? If you choose it...

So, you face a cleric, and he's starting to cast Offering. You phantom away out of range, then come back because his strongest attack has a cooldown of 1 minute. Problem solved, at least that part of it...sure, he'll put up a Bless if you let him, so account for that...interrupt his cast, whatever.

Knockdown/knockback is just as effective against Euros as against Chinese, right? And while they're down, they can't do much.